Is Secularism Dead!?
(An Andhra Pradesh CaseSheet )
Brahma Sri Samavedam Shanmukha Sharma
(- Editor Rushipeetam )
The message was loud and clear, “To realize our dream of making every house – a Christian home in the state, we have to vote for a particular party”. Thus spoke Pamphlets, during last elections in Andhra Pradesh. They were silently distributed at many places to certain communities.
Developing into a Christian State:
Four and half years past, their vision had come true. Today, Andhra Pradesh is a developing state, yes, certainly developing into a Christian State. It is good, if Christians prosper, but it is atrocious, if the so called development is at the cost of demoting Hindus-by decoying them through power traps and other means; demeaning Hindu sentiments and making every effort to, “Convert” them by augmenting the communal numbers of “their” so called community alone. Can you call this as, “Development”?
Why do our intellectuals and countrymen become blind to this blatant and brazen “crossing” of the State – throwing aside its secular vigor? Is this not the height of fanatical arrogance?
Came Christmas 2007 !, Whole world had sliced down its Christmas budget because of economic slowdown , yet in Andhra Pradesh , huge advertisements appeared on behalf the government-detailing millions and millions of funds ,being spent for the betterment, progress and prosperity of Christian community alone. It is an unabashed campaign stuffed with haughtiness and conceit. The surpluses showered therein shall certainly make the Santa Claus awestruck. Please do not forget views of François Gautier, (the renowned columnist – Indian express), how in this country important positions of important institutions are being “Christened” with their people.
Are they not building cemetery to the secularism in this country, by their shameless acts? Or is it our fault that we are not realizing that we are being ruled by communal forces? Have we become impotent and indifferent to their open declarations? Or are we tolerating and accumulating all Insults? What is happening?
In the name and disguise of “minority protection”, their dreams are being realized by working for the welfare of “their” people through “their” government. Is this situation acceptable to democracy, if it becomes for “their” people and by “their” people, when all people voted for them to come to power.
Christianized governance is making a demonic dance in the entire state of Andhra Pradesh, insulting Hindu sentiments and values.
Rulers’ Hypocrisy and Their Evangelic Relatives:
By making political visits to the Hindu Temples and thus troubling the thousands of ardent Hindu devotees during their visits and simultaneously grabbing every opportunity to adore their shining bald heads with Muslim caps – these imposters and hypocrites are making a mockery of secularism, when their cajolers and cronies including intellectuals waste no time in singing welcome songs to them and are offering a grand red carpet reception with ritualistic pompousness.
During December 2007, even the gleeful posters of a preacher – “ruler’s” most near and dear relative, aided by political funds and support, adored every nook and corner of the State, calling a clarion Christian call. Hindu name with a brother prefix, wishing a Christmas greeting, aiming for conversion, a face that had even wiped away the Jesus Christ photograph in these posters and banners became ubiquitous in their presence, through out the state displaying the rulers’ superciliousness and their disdain for secular values.
In some cities, the radius of its spread is up to ten kilometers; on every electric pole and on every tree, the message was displayed blatantly as “Jesus the only savior” (without Jesus Christ’s Photo). What does this mean? What should be tolerance level for other religious faiths of state for this kind of propaganda?
Why, are we not reacting ?, Why are we not protesting, to this crystal clear message from the rulers of Andhra Pradesh, that it is their “CE”- Christian era and others are just subjects and have to fall in line with them.
Majority Community’s Funds being diverted for Christian Subsidies :
It is Majority community’s exchequer that is being used to dole out subsidies to the Christian minority and allocate funds to build churches. Millions and millions of rupees are being spent from government treasury and even bonanzas and packages are being promised for this so called “Nobel – Gobel cause”, by tempting and ensnaring gullible people into conversion trap. The politics of religious number game is multiplying at the speed of light in Andhra Pradesh.
The Government subsidies to this particular religious community are something like adding fuel to the burning fire. Earlier missionaries spent only foreign funds for conversion. Today the government fund at their disposal is making their task easier.
Why people are not realizing that offering special incentives to a single religious community alone by the government tantamount to religious fundamentalism?. Is it ruler’s dad’s property to give out doles like this?
Government of Andhra Pradesh is spending millions of rupees and is sending Christians to visit Jerusalem. Have we vanquished Poverty to offer such communal sops? The government advertisements project it as a bold initiative being taken in the country for the first time. God save us, which country in the world can really take this drastically daring step? What moral right this government has to call it self as a secular government, if it is communalizing the state in the name of minority pampering.
In spite of having a Hindu name and caste suffix, the rulers continue to practice Christian Faith and Doctrines, none to question them. Shall the Jesus Christ, the personification of truth, pardon them? Our leaders like Swami Vivekananda, Mahatma Gandhi and Dr. Ambedkar had univocally condemned the religious conversions and had foretold that they are dangerous to nation’s peace and progress.
According to certain biblical texts, Jesus Christ had even warned his disciples not to go towards east and not to resort to religious conversions. Though it is evident that is a clear ploy of westerners to rule India through religion, yet the majority community of this land are becoming mute spectators and stooges in their gambit.
If the government pronounces that, it is their solemn duty to safeguard Christian’s property, what else can be said about this brazen utterance? Is it not the secular government’s duty to protect every Indian’s property, not just the Christian properties? Then what intentions prompt the government to make such appalling statements?
Jerusalem Trip Bonanzas:
Is any government worth its name in any foreign country, is offering to its minority community, the tax payers’ money, to visit their holy land situated in other countries? Why then does the government encourage this communal tourism to foreign countries? Are the churches in this country are becoming less holy and attractive? What message goes to the Christian converts living in this country? Is it not silently telling them that their religious roots do lie not in this country but in the foreign lands?
Hindu religious places are situated in this country and it implies that this country belongs to Hindus. This remains to be the eternal truth, in spite of painting the land with many pseudo secular colours.
Does this government offer any sops to Hindu pilgrimages? Which government in this country is offering subsidies to Hindus for their pilgrimage to “Manasasarovar”, situated in China? Leave aside these subsidies and grants, during Hindu festivals, the state owned Transport Corporation hikes the bus ticket charges to holy places situated in the state of Andhra Pradesh-special buses with special fares and poor Hindus pay them all.
This kind of discrimination by the government only confirms their hidden agenda to frustrate the majority community mindset and to lure them to claim minority status for sops.
Not a single political party in the state raises its voice against this injustice being meted out to the majority community. Vote bank politics make the opposition to offer more promises to the minorities and seek the vote shamelessly.
Where is Secularism Today ?
So it is crystal clear that majority community is at the receiving end of deprivation and discrimination. The more the parties try to lure minorities, all the more the majority community of this so called secular country is being denied of its basic rights.
Everyone in this country has equal rights and should live harmoniously with others. But our opposition is towards the policy of political parties which try to divide the majority and offer sops to minority for sake of holding the power.
We respect Jesus Christ and the holy Bible. Hindus are culturally tuned in their minds to accept Bible as a sacred text of Dharma Sastra. Living harmoniously with other religions is the very nature of Hindus. But this goodness is being viewed as its weakness and is being exploited for converting the whole Hindu community into Christianity. How long do these treacherous game plans have to be tolerated by the Hindus? Even the iota of the Humanistic principles cannot advocate this kind of exploitation for achieving numerical supremacy.
India is the land of Hindus for Eternity. The invaders of this country had established their respective religions by forcefully converting the people of this country by luring them with money and position and threatening them with sword. Yet the majority community had accepted the converted minority and is living peacefully with them, unlike many other countries. We all had become Indian citizens. We all had accepted secularism and secular values.
We cannot change our parents. Nobody wants to change his mother and father. Similarly about the religion one is born into. It is our righteousness rather ethical responsibility to adhere to the religious path in which we are born in.
In the countries like America and England, people of all religions are living together. There, we don’t find government offering special sops to minorities. Here at India, politicians create a fear complex about the safety of minorities only to plunder the votes of minorities. It is high time, that all the citizens representing all religious communities of this country should come forward and teach a befitting lesson to these power grabbers who divide the country on the communal lines in name of secularism. But, will that happen in this country? Poor citizens are getting trapped into sops being offered by the politicians and are not in a position to resist them and are in fact “parasite-ing” on them.
What is the Future of Tomorrow’s Hindu Minority ?
If the situation continues like this where shall Hindus migrate? How long should they tolerate and compromise? Hindu Temples were destroyed in the past, yet they tolerated every drastic act. Their mothers, sisters and wives were raped before their very eyes, yet they kept quiet. Their kith and kin’s heads were hacked and chopped, yet they uttered not a word. Their religion was suppressed in everyway, yet they endured. Hindus were not free citizens at that time, when these acrostics were heaped on them.
Today, being the citizens of Sovereign, Socialist, Secular and Democratic Republic, are we to accept and sit stoic to the same kind of treatment being meted by today’s rulers? Do our thick skinned bodies and our karmic mindsets, which blame everything on destiny and Kaliyuga’s pollution, make us live an enslaved life again?
Your future is at stake,. The day is not far away, when Hindus of this country become a minority. On that day, no separate ministries shall be carved out for minority welfare; no vote bank political sops and promises to make you grow; no special subsides; no special protection for your temples; every moment of your life shall become full with fear and threat from other religious bigots.
If you keep quiet today, your tomorrow is a big hell. If you tolerate these selfish politicians today, tomorrow our children shall be left with bleak and dreadful future.
Today’s Convert is Tomorrow’s Enemy:
In a village, the organizers of a Rama Temple lamented that “In the past, when we organize a procession of Lord’s Idols for Sri Rama Navami Celebrations, every house and every street used to participate in the festival. Today, we don’t see the same people turning up in the same streets. If we volunteer ourselves to their houses and inform them to come and receive the Prasad, they indifferently reply to us that they got converted and cannot take the Prasad.”
Yesterday’s devotees are today’s enemies. How to tackle this kind of situation? What should we do now? What can we do, expect cursing, crying and howling?
Christian festivals are celebrated in month of December all over the world. But in India, they happen with every throw of a cap- no timing and no logic. Very evangelistic preacher invents a new timing and a Christian festival is celebrated. These festivals are fabricated to be on par with Hindu festivals, be it Sankranti, Sivarathri or Navaratri. The invented Christian festivals happen at the proximity of famous Hindu temples in name of “Krupa Festival”, “Daya Festival”, ” Health Festivals “and grand conversions happen.
Now these programs have taken a new avatar, imitating horror serials like “Mystry after death”, “Death takes you to grave or hell”.
Conversions or religious propagation, what exactly is happening and what is the truth? There is a sea of difference between preaching religion and baiting conversions. All these days, the knife of conversion was smeared with words of honey like Love, Peace and Service. But today, we hear aggressive slogans like “yahovah shall fight”; “we want, economic, social and political rights”, being uttered by Christian fronts.
Hindus!, Arise!,Awake! :
How can one religion enjoy special status and special rights in a secular country? How far is it legal and ethical if one religion resolves that it should rule and subdue others in a democracy?
“This is Hindu country and Hindus alone should rule”. Have we ever heard such kind of words uttered in India? Don’t we deserve a ruler who is above communal mindset? When shall we have a polity that gives equal status to every religious community without pampering minorities?
Whether, Christians or Muslims, they had enjoyed their hay days, during foreign rule in the past. They were never subjected to sorrow in their past. Why then, they require special status on the basis of religion today? Is idiocy and ignorance overpowering Hindus that they deter from answering the hypocritical zealots? Do they fear the terror mongers and their bosses in neighboring countries?
Religion is a matter of faith, it is a not a political ideology. Why is support required from the government to make a person follow his faith sincerely? Why then governments declare sops and subsidies based on the religion? What does it means if Government proclaims, that “Government supports all Christians in the state in every way”. Can the gesture of the government be interpreted as the open support to religious conversion that is happening at alarming levels for the past four years?
Recently, an opposition leader in the state was exhorting people to revolt against the rulers, as the government was grabbing the lands of poor and was distributing them to the most favored industrialists. Can Hindus take clue from it and revolt, applying the same logic to themselves?
Hindus!, Arise!,Awake!, No foreign country in world comes to your rescue, when matters go worse and your human rights become denied. Yet, even to a small discomfort to minorities in this country, the whole world becomes hyped with words of injustice being done to the minorities and human rights violation.
These are the heart burns expressed with concern, yet there can be certain political minds which give saffron coloring to the above words. This voice remains independent of political sides and tunes. This expression has nothing to do with any Political Parties and Parivars. As a true inheritor of this country’s Hindu heritage and legacy ,every letter of the every word , had evolved and shaped from the depths of the Heart, which is eternally soaked in Hindu dharma.
***OM*****
Arise Bharat 
Pls tell or post in comment that how many places not received Christ…in Andra Pradesh, West and East Godavari…
‘Fear leads to hate
Hate leads to anger
Anger leads to the dark side’
(This leads to a black hole)
The Phantom Menace
That you may know a person better
Not from the knowledge he possesses
(or beliefs he inherits )
But from choices He himself makes.
The Chamber Of Secrets
The Christian missionaries are spending millions of dollars by building orphanages and hospitals with the sole intention of converting Hindus to Christianity. The converts do not change their Hindu names but start visiting Churches and getting benefits. I think currently the Christians in India are more than 15% of Indian population. Why the Hindu political parties are ignoring these conversion?
Dont just blame dalits, my proper is tirupati which has relatively less Christians, when we moved to ongole (a major town in coastal ap) I was shocked to see the huge christian population which I can say is definitely a majority, people approach me and say they are brahmin Christians,reddy Christians, kamma Christians, I received many complaints from poor dailit Hindus that unless they convert to Christianity they won’t get govt jobs or not entitled to any govt schemes, we took serious action against them but shortly we are transferred to other place , I can say in entire coastal Ap from nellore to godavari dist, Hinduism may be wiped in a decade or so. Also though churches own huge land in ongole, govt confiscates temple lands to build houses or implement any scheme. This intimidation is real and I have experienced it.
The local Hindu organisations should do some positive work to apprise the people what Hinduism mean. I am sure they are not sleeping. Some social work need to do be done to educate. The Hindus at large should shift loyalty to BJP to see some positive steps in the right direction. No point in electing T.D.P
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ALL THE HINDU PEOPLE IN ANDHRA PRADESH SHOULD VOTE FOR BJP AND MAKE PROTEST AGAINST CHRISTIAN MISSIONARIES IN THE NAME OF LORD RAM,LORD HANUMAN,LORD VENKATESHWARA AND THE GREAT KING WHO SAVED HINDU DHARMA AND THE SECOND LORD OF HINDUS THE GREAT CHATRAPATHI SHIVAJI MAHARAJ,PESHWA BAJI RAO,PESHWA MADHAV RAO,SAMBHAJI MAHARAJ AND RANA PRATAP SINGH.THE BJP ANDHRA PRADESH IS MORE SERIOUS ABOUT HIS CONVERSIONS AND MAKING ITS EFFORTS TO STOP THE CONVERSIONS FROM MISSIONARIES BUT ITS BECOMING FAILURE BECAUSE OF CONGRESS PARTY(INC)AND YSR CONGRESS PARTY.BUT THE PEOPLE OF AP IS NOT SERIOUS ABOUT THIS CHRISTIAN CONVERSION MATTER.
all BJP is doing in last 5 years is licking YSR boots, now people should vote for BJP ?????/
Well congress was licking the ML and British boots, did the nation not vote for congress instead of HMS? Alternatives can only grow as much as they are encouraged by public mandate. If common man is happy with a corrupt, lazy, endangered country led by congress, he will get just that.
ALL MY ANDHRA PRADESH FRIENDS MY REQUEST IS PLEASE VOTE FOR BJP FOR THE SAKE OF SAVING HINDU RELIGION BY STARTING HINDUTVA IDEOLOGY TO SAVE ANDHRA PRADESH FROM CHRISTIAN MISSIONARIES.
I THINK AGAIN THE HINDU(HINDUTVA) CHATRAPATHI SHIVAJI(BJP) RULE SHOULD BEGIN TO SAVE ANDHRA PRADESH FROM THE CHRISTIAN MISSIONARIES.AND TO SAVE OUR HINDUSTAN(HINDU STHAANA) FROM CHRISTIAN MISSIONARIES AND CONGRESS.
Dear Rocky
It is perfectly fine that you choose to use adjectives like utterly ignorant, brainwashed in your posts. When a person uses these terms, it is clear that he/she is unable to make a case out of what he stands for. When you chose to have a discussion, you must also learn to respect the discussion and the people associated with it. Otherwise, it is fine that you do not choose to have the discussion at all. That is the reason that inspite of all your negative adjectives written over so many posts, there is not a single such statement from our side.
Coming to your post. It is not what Rocky says Or arisebharat says with related to the Bible, it is what is communicated about the Bible by the christian priests to the believers. To take matter further…You rightly pointed out that the story related was the Parable of Minas. Every “prophet” or any leader relates a parable to make a point. While you are looking at a story, it also important to look at the message and the purpose. The purpose of a parable is to drive a message and the setting of where the parable is related is important.
http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2009/06/09/what-does-the-parable-of-the-minas-mean/
http://www.bcbsr.com/survey/pbl40.html
It is fine that some of you may chose to take up a completly different meaning from the parable…but what matters is what is being communicated downline in a church to the believers and what the believers take out of the parable because that is what drives action forward. It is these explanations that over the last two millenium has lead to religious conflicts across the world.
There are many other statements which are
Jesus Christ urged to forgive people for their wrongdoings, but refusing to worship himself Jesus considered to be an unforgivable crime. ‘He who is not with me is against me’ – he explained (Luke, 11/23).
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
(for example, Mathew, 10/36-38);
Finally, having been left alone with his apostles, Jesus Christ openly and honestly confessed: ‘Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law…’ (Mark, 10, 34-35)..
It is these texts and many more such that are attributed as Jesus words inciting conversion not by some layman called arisebharat or Rocky but by the Christian clergy.
2. Then you wrote
Do you know that there are a large number of Muslims apolgists who say the exact reverse of what you are saying and they quote Mohammad about how benevolent he was etc etc.. The fact remains that is not about what you and we beleive about Mohammad, it is about what the Mullah is teaching them and their attitude towards the non-believers.
Some people attribute hatred to Hindu texts also…But fortunately, Hinduism is not a prophet driven religion Or Dharma and therefore, we have the advantage of using our faculties and not being targetted for it. Also Hindu saints, priest and pravachankaars have not preached hatred against other religions but preach analysis of the teachings ( for eg Satyartha Prakash of Swami Dayananda). It is this pluralism that must be defended. Unfortunately, it is this pluralism that is being attacked with government help ( like in Andhra PRadesh) by the exclusivist religions, Christianity and Islam. It is this that you are choosing to ignore.
3. Reg, Gandhiji, again you chose to say that ” if you don’t subscribe to his philosophy, dont quote him”. This is ridiculous. Did you read Gandhiji’s ” Hindu Dharma”. His Hind Swaraj. We work on those principles. He has explicitly stated,
” The average Muslim is a bully, and the average Hindu is a coward and so long as there are cowards, there are bullies.” – (His work on Cause of Communal violence). To counter this he states, that the Hindu must become strong.
We are of the same opinion. THe Hindu must resist not only physical aggression but also idealogical aggression because if idealogical aggression is not countered in time, it eventually leads to physical aggression.
Gandhiji before and after coming back from South Africa are at completly different levels. . After coming back from South Africa, he made a thorough study of the country. While Gandhiji, had respect for the Sermon on the mount, he refuted every attempt to convert him. He was very clearly against conversion and the dangers that it leads to which is amply demonstrated by the series of quotes that we had given you by him.
In fact it is surprising that while we are giving you writings of the Mahatma himself, from the Young India and the Harijan, you chose to quote some “other” respectable source. We trust that you do not have any motive in ignoring the quotes.
You said, that he did not want to use any law to ban conversion. Read on.. The Harijan dated May 11, 1935 published an interview given by Gandhiji to a missionary nurse before that date. The nurse asked him, “would you prevent missionaries coming to India in order to baptize? Gandhiji replied, “If I had power and could legislate, I should certainly stop all proselytizing. It is the cause of much avoidable conflict between classes and unnecessary heart-burning among the missionaries”.
3. Reg, your paras on violence etc, we have not advocated violence and nowhere have we demonstrated that.. We are only demanding that the state power which is being misused to spread religion is causing damage. While the fund from Hindu temples is treated as government money as Endowments, the money from CHurches and Masjids are not. We are for an assertive society which does not take injustice lying down and a Dharmic government which does not play religious vote bank politics.
Regarding the rest of your post that you would oppose a law in Pakistan etc , it is purely therotical since you do not live in Pakistan and neither are you demonstrating any action against the fraudalent means being adopted by Christian missionaries in Bharat.
To close, read the quote from one more luminary of our country, regarding the dangers of conversion,.
” And then every man going out of the Hindu pale is not only a man less, but an enemy the more.” – Swami Vivekananda in His Complete Works, Volume 5.
Dear Arisebharat,
I called you ignorant because you have done something which is unpardonable while making a good discussion about religious texts. You are quoting someone who related a story. Suppose today you quote Adolf Hitler I cannot say that ‘Mr. Arise bharat has asked to kill all jews’. So that was something I found very ignorant. My sincere apologies if you felt I am being arrogant.
In your reply you have quoted verse Mark 10: 34-35. In fact, your quotation was not even there in that original source. I did not even find the verse you have quoted.
For instance you have quoted Mark 10: 34-35, and I did not even find any verse which you have quoted. In fact I searched the very site that you had mentioned in your first post:
I am quoting below (cut and pasting the entire verse from verse 30 to 36 and nowhere the words that you have quoted are seen)
quote from the website http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark%2010&version=NIV
“24 The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is[e] to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
26 The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, “Who then can be saved?”
27 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”
28 Then Peter spoke up, “We have left everything to follow you!”
29 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30 will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life. 31 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”
Jesus Predicts His Death a Third Time
32 They were on their way up to Jerusalem, with Jesus leading the way, and the disciples were astonished, while those who followed were afraid. Again he took the Twelve aside and told them what was going to happen to him. 33 “We are going up to Jerusalem,” he said, “and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles, 34 who will mock him and spit on him, flog him and kill him. Three days later he will rise.”
The Request of James and John
35 Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to him. “Teacher,” they said, “we want you to do for us whatever we ask.”
36 “What do you want me to do for you?” he asked.
37 They replied, “Let one of us sit at your right and the other at your left in your glory.”
38 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said. “Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?”
39 “We can,” they answered.”
unquote *****************************************
So tell me where is the verse which you are talking about in Mark? As you can see no where Jesus has said that they must worship him or be killed. Please do not propagate false propaganda. Jesus merely asks people to follow his teachings of love and forgiveness (and the reason Jesus makes this statement is simply because earlier the jews of the area used to follow the teachings of Moses which meant an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth).
Similarly let us look at the quote of Matthew which you have quoted:
quote
26 “So do not be afraid of them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care.[b] 30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.
32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[c]
37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.
unquote
In fact here too Jesus is clearly saying that there might be conflict in the household due to people who want to follow Jesus. In fact in our country, when a daughter marries someone of her choice also there is a conflict in the household. So this is precisely the scenario that Jesus paints.
That is absolutely true. In any household when one person changes his religion there is conflict. But this happens only in uneducated households. If you are enlightened you will not really grudge it, if your brother becomes a Buddhist on his own or if he joins another religion. You will not force him to adopt your own style of worship. You will not hate him for his choice.
In fact all that Jesus is saying that people should love God (Brahma) and should love the neighbour. In fact, for people like you who doubt his teachings, there is another express verdict from Jesus which clearly state his teachings.
quote : Matthew 22: 36-40
Matthew 22:36-40
New International Version (NIV)
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
unquote
In fact, dear Arisebharat, once I had a discussion with some Christian groups and myself asked told them this verse. I clearly told them that no where in the new testament bible, Christ has mentioned that people should only follow him or they should be killed or they will go to hell. IN FACT CHRIST HAS EXPRESSLY MENTIONED ONLY THESE 2 COMMANDS. ‘Loving God (Brahma) and ‘loving the neighbour ‘ ( fellow human being)
He never asked anyone to kill in his name. In fact the only statement that missionaries use sometimes is this where Jesus says ” I am the word, the truth and the life…….” this verse is from John 14 verse 16. I am very much aware of this.
But Arise bharat, this is similar to the verse of Lord Krishna in Bhagvadgita
http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-10-03.html
where Krishna says “He who knows Me as the unborn, as the beginningless, as the Supreme Lord of all the worlds — he only, undeluded among men, is freed from all sins.”
Please understand that every great master has given verses such as this, because at that time I am sure they were the incarnations of the divine.
But I can still say that no where Christ has exhorted his followers to be violent in following or spreading his message.
I have read Quran, Bible and Bhagvad Gita in the spirit that it should be read. (If you read any book with the spirit to find faults with it, you will find hundreds of fault in any religious book, because all books including Bhagvad Gita, Bible or Quran were written by human beings and human beings might make errors.)
But despite this flaw, I have found that neither Buddha or Christ have ever called for violence or killings. (In case you can show me any verse where Buddha has asked for violence to be committed, please do share with me). Now regarding the other verse which you have quoted Luke 11/23. In fact that verse is clearly where Jesus states that those who are not with the divine forces are often with the demonic/satanic (or as we say in India rakshasa forces). So that is the verse. In fact, that is also a true verse. I do believe that rakshasa forces (or dark forces) do exist in the Universe just like divine forces.
So it is our duty to build a fair, ethical society where rakshasa forces can have only limited role to play.
I am beginning to think that either you are quoting these verses straight from some anti-christ type of website. Please do not do so… Please read the passage yourself. In fact all sorts of ‘anti’ websites are easy to find. If I want I can find thousands of websites where people who have understood Hindu spirituality and quoted some verses from Hindu scriptures. I have never used that on this board to make a point. If you want to really learn, please go to some authentic website which actually shows the full scripture and read the full passage. Otherwise you will make the same mistakes like calling the ‘story’ quoted by Christ as his instruction.
Whenever someone points to Gita, Bible or Quran and points to a quote I go to the original source and read the full passage or if needed the full chapter.
Of course despite this, I can state clearly that in the old testament of the Bible there is lot of violence in the Bible (I do not want you to think I am defending Bible or Quran or any other religious texts). The same with the Quran (where at times Prophet Muhammad has expressly asked people to be violent at times). Despite that I believe that Prophet Muhammad was a liberal for his time. Unfortunately the Muslims refuse to believe that many of the things written in the Quran is only fit for the time of Prophet Muhammad and not for today. In fact if Prophet Muhammad was alive today, I am sure he would have himself revised the Quran. That is their main problem.
Regarding Gandhiji, some of his quotes which you have mentioned, I have my doubts about. I am sure these are quotes either non-existent (like your quote on Mark, 10, 34-35, which was totally absent when I referred the bible website or… taken out of context) . So till I find the source, I cannot comment on that. In fact, I very much doubt whether Gandhiji has ever called all ‘muslims as bullies’…. Please share the source with me if it is authentic …. (I have a feeling you too borrow too many quotes from websites which give their own spin to things… please give me the original Gandhian source for his writings which you have quoted so that I can read the whole paragraph. From what I know of Gandhiji, although he was against conversion for personal benefits, just like I am, but I do not think he ever advocated use of force of the state or the force of violent ‘pseudo-Hindu mobs’ to prevent any non-violent conversion programme.
In fact let me share the authentic source of Gandhiji’s writings. His writing in Young India – that too from an original Gandhian website
(http://www.gandhi-manibhavan.org/eduresources/article7.htm)
Please read this quote (where he has nicely potrayed the common fears playing in Hindu and Muslim minds) ::
“I know that there is much too much distrust of one another as yet. Many Hindus distrust Mussulman honesty. They believe that Swaraj means Mussulman Raj, for they argue that without the British, Mussulmans of India will aid Mussulman power to build a Mussulman empire in India. Mussulmans on the other hand fear that the Hindus, being in an overwhelming majority, will smother them. Such an attitude of mind betokens impotence on either’s part. If not their nobility, their desire to live in peace would dictate a policy of mutual trust and forbearance. There is nothing in either religion to keep the two apart. The days of forcible conversion are gone. Save for the cow, Hindus can have no ground for quarrel with Mussulmans. The latter are under no religious obligation to slaughter a cow. The fact is we have never before now endeavoured to come together to adjust our differences and to live as friends bound to one another as children of the same sacred soil. We have both now an opportunity of a lifetime.”
This is published in 1921. In fact he is very much saying that the bogey of FORCIBLE conversion often raised by those ‘pseudo-Hindu’ groups are not based on facts always. Morever, if you see, even after almost a century after this writing, the Muslims and Hindus in India still suffer from these kind of fears… … Muslim organisations in India fear that Hindus will bully them. Hindus fear (quite unrealistically) that the 11 % Muslim population will become 51 % very soon and convert India into an Islamic country…. {Of course, in my personal opinion, if they continue to live in ghettos and remain uneducated while only learning the Quran and seeing genocides by groups like Bajrang Dal, it might happen if their population continues to grow exponentially… To prevent that, Muslims must be brought into the mainstream and brought into secular educational traditions.. There is no other ethical alternative….}
Despite these quotes or your corrections of Bible/Gita please let me tell you one thing very clearly . I certainly condemn anyone who employees violence or force to convert anyone to any faith, whether it is Christians, Muslims or any other groups. I think it is unethical and illegal and goes against basic human rights. So this is where the state has to step in to prevent conversions by force. Also conversions of children, mentally unstable or by fraud (not letting people know that they are being made muslims, christians or Hindus or whatever) is unacceptable.
However, having said this, if a person converts voluntarily, I would totally stand with him. If tomorrow, you Mr. Arise bharat want to become a Muslim or Christian or Buddhist it is totally your personal matter (even if you might be doing so for personal advantages or to marry a girl of ur choice), this is purely your personal matter. The state has only the business to intervene if a person’s rights have been violated. If the state intervenes otherwise, it is nothing but fascism (similar to Saudi fascism which prevents people from embracing Hindu practices while in Saudi). State fascism is always UNETHICAL, even if it is done by passing some unethical laws. In fact, in olden days, countries like France used to burn even Christians who were following other practices – this is also FASCISM. Today some Muslim countries use blasphemy laws when it suits them, against non-Muslims – this is FASCISM. If any government passes a law and states that people must be only of this religion or that religion – that is also FASCISM (whether it is done by BJP government or Congress is not important). In any great civilisation, people must be free to make their own choice of whom they must marry, which religion they will follow, which books or movies they will see etc. I firmly stand for that.
Dear Rocky
You seem to have either deliberately tried to give a twist to our intention by quoting Mark when we had explicitly quote Luke and Mathew in our refernce. we are sure you must be aware that there are 4 gospels and all four our treated as authentic by the clergy.
We clearly wrote that quote ” Jesus Christ urged to forgive people for their wrongdoings, but refusing to worship himself Jesus considered to be an unforgivable crime. ‘He who is not with me is against me’ – he explained (Luke, 11/23).
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+11%3A23&version=NIV
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
(for example, Mathew, 10/36-38);
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+10&version=KJV
end of quote
You just need to go to the Bible once again and then hear what is the spin that the clergy gives to motivate the converts.
WE had clearly written that ” It is these texts and many more such that are attributed as Jesus words inciting conversion not by some layman called arisebharat or Rocky but by the Christian clergy”.
What is relevant is what is being taught in a church to the believers and how it gets translated into action. Thousands of homes in Bharat are getting affected due to conversion, not because it means a change in belief but because the person who gets converted begins assaulting the Hindu way of worship first verbally and then physically. There are thousands of such examples which if you care to study you will realize.
We have explained earlier and repeat once again that it hardly matters if Rocky tries to see the so-called “spiritual side” of Christianity. It is your personal belief. What matters is the what is being demonstrated in action by the missionaries and the converts who are disturbing the social side of society.
3. Reg Gandhiji, “If you do not believe in the quote regarding Gandhiji’s views on conversion, then the onus is on you to go through the data written by Gandhiji and disprove what he said about the Christian missionary and their activities which disturb the peace and harmony in the country.
We wrote earlier that while Gandhiji may have had regard for Christ, he was completly against Christian conversions in Bharat and in fact advocated that this must be banned. We have shown you ample quotes on the same.
Dear Rocky
You seem to have either deliberately tried to give a twist to our intention by quoting Mark when we had explicitly quote Luke and Mathew in our refernce. we are sure you must be aware that there are 4 gospels and all four our treated as authentic by the clergy.
We clearly wrote that quote ” Jesus Christ urged to forgive people for their wrongdoings, but refusing to worship himself Jesus considered to be an unforgivable crime. ‘He who is not with me is against me’ – he explained (Luke, 11/23).
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+11%3A23&version=NIV
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
(for example, Mathew, 10/36-38);
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+10&version=KJV
end of quote
You just need to go to the Bible once again and then hear what is the spin that the clergy gives to motivate the converts.
WE had clearly written that ” It is these texts and many more such that are attributed as Jesus words inciting conversion not by some layman called arisebharat or Rocky but by the Christian clergy”.
What is relevant is what is being taught in a church to the believers and how it gets translated into action. Thousands of homes in Bharat are getting affected due to conversion, not because it means a change in belief but because the person who gets converted begins assaulting the Hindu way of worship first verbally and then physically. There are thousands of such examples which if you care to study you will realize.
We have explained earlier and repeat once again that it hardly matters if Rocky tries to see the so-called “spiritual side” of Christianity. It is your personal belief. What matters is the what is being demonstrated in action by the missionaries and the converts who are disturbing the social side of society.
3. Reg Gandhiji, “If you do not believe in the quote regarding Gandhiji’s views on conversion, then the onus is on you to go through the data written by Gandhiji and disprove what he said about the Christian missionary and their activities which disturb the peace and harmony in the country.
We wrote earlier that while Gandhiji may have had regard for Christ, he was completly against Christian conversions in Bharat and in fact advocated that this must be banned. We have shown you ample quotes on the same.
What does it matter what you say, Rocky? You just have to answer for all the violence being committed all over the world in the name of “good news” “religion of peace” – in the order of millions. If you are talking about “religion of peace”, you better answer the deaths of hundred million Amerindians, millions of Jews all through history, hundreds of thousands of Hindus all over the subcontinent – right from Goa to Mylapore to Orissa. Religion of peace is the biggest epitome of aggression as history attests. Your quotes from Bible are useless apologies, and even cheap distraction tricks. The question for an honest man would be what are you doing to transform your artifice of violence into a tolerant and civilized cult? But as time shows, honesty is the least expected from Abrahamic apologists.
the main reason of religion conversion is not having awareness of hindu scriptures.
More than that it is simple fact that good Hindus of lower caste are unable to sometimes earn enough money to live a minimum decent life. When the repression from higher castes and abysmal poverty combine, then anyone will adopt any religion which will give them some emotional support as well as some material comfort. Instead of understanding this simple reality and providing relief to these poor, downtrodden people which will automatically take care of conversions due to material attractions…our shameless government and ‘pseudo-Hindu’ groups want to attack the missionaries instead of addressing the core problem. MERA BHARAT MAHAAN…. the country which tops the list of those who adopt short-cuts….
wake up!!
Demographics of India as per 2012 Jan
Total population 124 crores
Religion: 2012(2001)
Hindus: 72%(80.5) -8.5
Muslims: 16.4%(13) +3.4
Christians: 6.3%(2.3) +4
Sikhs:1.8%(2.1)
others: rest 3-4%
1% rise implies 1.24 crore more
8% decline indicates 9,92,00,000 reduced strength for Hindus
4% rise for Xians means they have increased by 4,96,00,000 most of it would be through conversions
3.4% rise for mullas mostly bangladeshis or their baby producing factories
Can you give the link? Is it official or some figment of your imagination…? Similar to the so-called ‘interview of the missionary’ which was later shown to be pure figment of someone’s overactive brain-washed perspective and imagination..?
As mentioned above by my friends out there India is known as unity in diversity w.r.t cultures, traditions and religions..hindu sanathana dharma teaches the way others should be treated with respect regardless of one’s faith and beliefs..as the discussion is regarding religion, after reading the page fully along with comments I reply such…
Illiterates and other people in backward areas and rural will not be able to make effective decision making about their living and follow the trend for getting their basic needs..thats why there is government to safeguard their interests
These people tend to look service providers as their well wishers for offering basic needs..
In the democratic India the most failure part of Govt. is to provide the basic needs to poor..So by serving them why the matter of religion should be raised?? not only in india in any other developing or backward countries..you wanted to serve people so do with it..why you force/coerce/undue influence for swapping religions for needs??????
Most of the non-hindu or against hinduism friends here quoted them as pseudohindu for taking about the hindu people and the culture
I have serious questions for them
–Does taking help from others require converting into their religion? (in relation to the replies regarding conversion of backward areas)
–Did you experince afterlife benefits in heaven?? How can you guide others to conversion without you tasting the same????
@ROCKY
Interestingly one thing caught my notice..
“””CHRison June 4, 2011 at 6:33 pm said:
You are such an Idiot.People like you wont accept their ‘MOTHER’ as their ‘MOTHER’.Being a HINDU,it is really shameful.You were born to Hindu parents and in a Hindu country,COUNTRY BRUT ””
you said you respect all cultures and why didn’t u respond to this Ill-mannered comment as against you expressing ur views against hindu religion comments?????
If you see in AndhraPradesh the conversion has become a business.
I’ll give you a citation…Generally school students visit homes for collecting funds for various charitable purposes viz. helping the needy/ old homage org etc..but recently the students from schools are carrying placards about spreading Christianity..this is heights!!
@Rocky!! do you think they are doing this fully aware ???
This is my first comment ever in my life in an open forum about religion..I support all religions as mine..this is what hinduism taught me… as my own my friends of core christian background(keralites) and muslims come to my house without any problems..we did not get any discussion about conversion..not at all…the problem is only with the recent converted ignorants blabbering about the religion and conversion most of the time..I really hate such
@mudumby, Well, I have both Hindus and Christians in my close family. I have clearly stated before also that I am against forced conversions from any religion. Recently I read a news in Dawn (a pakistani daily) about how Hindu girls were being kidnapped and forcibly converted. I condemn it and most strongly. These are really hateful people who do it.
Now having said this, I also believe that every person has the supreme right to choose the religion of his choice. For instance, tomorrow if you want to become a Muslim or Christian out of your own choice I will totally support you. (Even if you are doing it for money, it is your personal business).
For example if one of my good female friends decides to marry a little older man for his money rather than for love, I will certainly advise her against it, but it is her final choice. Sometimes she may even tell me that she is marrying that person for love, whereas she might be marrying someone for the money or his big car. But this is strictly her personal matter.
Same way, if you are an adult person, even if you convert for the sake of money which missionaries are giving you, I may not agree with you, but it is purely your personal supreme choice. Let us not get our moral compass confused in the muddy waters of culture, religion etc. but respect the human rights of every individual.
If anyone breaks the law, no matter what religion he/she is from, we should ruthlessly punish that person.
Of course each one of us is free to practice our own culture. If I am a Hindu or Buddhist I must be free to practice or even preach my beliefs (but peacefully through the use of literature, journals, discussions, debates). Even Gandhiji used to preach his ways of good health, devotion etc. through newspapers, journals etc. But he never forced it on anyone. Even one of Gandhiji’s own sons was a drunkard and extreme womaniser. But Gandhiji never asked goons like Bajrang Dal or VHP or RSS (with lathi) to force him through violence, intimidation etc. to give up his habits.
Now at this stage you might argue that these liberal humane principles are not being followed in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. Yes you are right. Both these countries, according to me are immoral, bigoted countries. Just because there is a mad dog in our neighbourhood, we should not aspire to become mad dogs ourselves.
And lastly this is my suggestion to combat conversion:
My suggestion:: Without spewing hatred against Christians who preach their religion, we should start a fund for Hindus who are extremely poor. So many Hindus worldwide are so rich. People like Ambani own billions and with that money want to build huge multi-billion houses for 2 or 3 people to stay. While this is perfectly legal but I would ask Ambani, is this moral? Instead these Hindu rich people should contribute to create a fund for extremely poor Hindus who convert in order to avoid starvation. This is not a business of the government but should be done by NGOs. This will kill the monetary motivation for conversion. And slowly the same situation which is happening in the west (more and more people avoiding organised religions) will happen here in India also. Of course, those who freely convert will still continue to do so, but then that is within their human rights.
In fact, unnecessarily we Indians tend to get unduly emotional about conversion. When I was abroad in Europe and even in USA, I have seen in so many town centres people trying to convert others in a peaceful way. I saw in London and some parts of France the Hare Krishnas trying to preach their religion. In fact some of the poor white people had already converted and were trying to sell me Bhagvad Gita. When I told him I already have one in my house he did not say anything and moved on to another person. I was told that many extremely poor whites who are discarded by the relatives are joining the Hare movement for the free food, emotional support and also the facility of a roof over their head (at times).
Similarly, at some other point of time the salvation army guys wanted to meet me in person so that they could discuss the bible. I told them I have read the bible and politely (but firmly) told them that I might not be interested in taking it further. So they understood it.
At the same time, I would never wish that any violence should be done against either of these people. I totally support their right to preach whatever they believe peacefully. If some group like the stupid Bajrang Dals or some VHP type goons (I mean some equivalent white groups in UK or elsewhere) want to attack the Hare Krishnas I would totally condemn it. The same way that I am condemning today the goons/mobs of ‘pseudo-Hindutva’ for their behaviour.
Again those people who call themselves Hindu intellectuals are unnecessarily getting worked up over conversions. Please stop looking at narrow stretches of land and worry about Hinduism. Hinduism as a religion is not under any imminent threat (although the pseudo-Hindu organisations would like you to believe that – after all, unless they spread fear psychosis, how will they get new recruits and more funds). In fact elsewhere in my post I have mentioned that the number of Hindu temples in USA or UK have gone up tremendously in the last twenty years. Please look at the number of Hindu temples worldwide in the last twenty years (including ‘christian’ countries of Europe, US, Australia etc.) The larger reality globally is that more and more people are leaving organised religions and joining meditation, yoga, reading new age books, following Hindu gurus etc. That is also one form of reverse conversion which is happening. So stop getting all emotional and worked up. This churning of thoughts, religions etc. is a normal process in the history of countries.
Rocky,
You said,
“Without spewing hatred against Christians who preach their religion, we should start a fund for Hindus who are extremely poor. So many Hindus worldwide are so rich.”
Very nice point. There are a lot of organizations which are doing it. I hope you are also contributing to such organizations.
But why are you attributing “spewing hatred” to the Hindus. It is the CHristian missionary who is spewing hatred on the Hindus and it is the Hindu who is defending his faith. In fact, the very article on which you began commenting was only a white paper on the conversion attempts by the Chrisitans in Bharat who are not only using funds but also official state power to drive it. That was the point of the article. For some reason, you took it as an attack on Christians.. whereas it was an defence against the missionary activities in Bharat.
Mahatma Gandhi himself recognized that the Conversion is an impediment to peace.
He writes in the Harijan, 1937 – Conversion: Impediment to Peace
It is impossible for me to reconcile myself to the idea of conversion after the style that goes on in India and elsewhere today. It is an error which is perhaps the greatest impediment to the world’s progress toward peace. Why should a Christian want to convert a Hindu to Christianity? Why should he not be satisfied if the Hindu is a good or godly man? (Harijan: January 30, 1937
My fear is that though Christian friends nowadays do not say or admit it that Hindu religion is untrue, they must harbour in their breast that Hinduism is an error and that Christianity, as they believe it, is the only true religion. So far as one can understand the present (Christian) effort, it is to uproot Hinduism from her very foundation and replace it by another faith. (Harijan: March 13,1937)
He also writes ” As I wander about through the length and breath of India I see many Christian Indians almost ashamed of their birth, certainly of their ancestral religion, and of their ancestral dress. The aping of Europeans by Anglo-Indians is bad enough, but the aping of them by Indian converts is a violence done to their country and, shall I say, even to their new religion. (Young India: August 8, 1925)
and then he says ” If I had the power and could legislate, I should stop all proselytizing. In Hindu households the advent of a missionary has meant the disruption of the family coming in the wake of change of dress, manners, language, food and drink . (November 5, 1935)
Unfortunately, the warnings of the Mahatma were largely ignored by his so-called followers who just took advantage of him to wield state power.
As mentioned above by my friends out there India is known as unity in diversity w.r.t cultures, traditions and religions..hindu sanathana dharma teaches the way others should be treated with respect regardless of one’s faith and beliefs..as the discussion is regarding religion, after reading the page fully along with comments I reply such…
Illiterates and other people in backward areas and rural will not be able to make effective decision making about their living and follow the trend for getting their basic needs..thats why there is government to safeguard their interests..These people tend to look service providers as their well wishers for offering basic needs..
In the democratic India the most failure part of Govt. is to provide the basic needs to poor..So by serving them by any missionary organisation why the matter of religion should be raised?? not only in india in any other developing or backward countries..you wanted to serve people so do with it..why you force/coerce/undue influence for swapping religions for needs??????
Most of the non-hindu or against hinduism friends here quoted them as pseudohindu for taking about the hindu people and the culture
I have serious questions for them
–Does taking help from others require converting into their religion? (in relation to the replies regarding conversion of backward areas)
–Did you experince afterlife benefits in heaven?? without that How can you guide others to conversion by luring them????
@ROCKY
Interestingly one thing caught my notice..
“””CHRison June 4, 2011 at 6:33 pm said:
You are such an Idiot.People like you wont accept their ‘MOTHER’ as their ‘MOTHER’.Being a HINDU,it is really shameful.You were born to Hindu parents and in a Hindu country,COUNTRY BRUT ””
you said you respect all cultures and why didn’t u respond to this Ill-mannered comment as against you expressing ur views against hindu religion comments?????
If you see in AndhraPradesh the conversion has become a business.
I’ll give you a citation…Generally school students visit homes for collecting funds for various charitable purposes viz. helping the needy/ old homage org etc..but recently the students from schools are carrying placards about spreading Christianity..this is heights!!
@Rocky!! do you think they are doing this fully aware ???
This is my first comment ever in my life in an open forum about religion..I support all religions as mine..this is what hinduism taught me… as my own my friends of core christian background(keralites) and muslims come to my house without any problems..we did not get any discussion about conversion..not at all…the problem is only with the recent converted ignorants blabbering about the religion and conversion most of the time..I really hate such
in Andhra pradesh many of the people(specially Hindus) will blindly get converted to Christianity bcoz by seeing the fathers doing some miracles which nobody belives and those miracles are keeping their hands on head of other persons to make them fall and making deaf and dumb persons to be very healthy and and making the handicapped people to walk and be healthy and many more and i think its an acting which fathers do like this and people act as if they were diseased and handicapped.because by seeing this acting only many of the people in andhra getting converted and following christianity.christians are actors not real humans
what u r saying is 100% correct.
hi,
Why are all the Reddy’s keeping quiet when Christianity is flourishing under their community?
In Andhra, a time will come when a Reddy will be considered a christian!
The top officials in the andhra ministry are all christians.
jagan mohan
Kiran
Home minister
Ysr
Ysr’s wife preaches christianity for tv channels
media is controlled by them…people of andhra r very naive n simple people who r not understanding that there are lot of black sheep amongst them…jagan reddys family are a bunch of wolves under the sheeps hide who use money from temples of andhra n fund churches….has anyone filed n rti on where the tirupati money goes?…..
Even worse is kerala….
Guys open ur eyes.
@rocky:
Dear brother,
Christianity like Islam are cancers to the world of faith and Religion.
Christianity spread across Europe during the dark ages took a few centuries to convert everyone to Christianity into one or the other denominations, today people have no faith/no morals…you might have lived abroad. I have been here in the US/Europe since quite some time…all those who follow Christianity have mostly deserted the faith. Take a look at the church attendance across Europe and the rising number of non believers. Cancer in many ways attacks one organ/tissue of a body after another…leading to a total collapse of the host.
So does Christianity, please take a look at the faiths that have diverted from hindutva…northeast..gone for a toss…have you visited north-east India, they call a rabid Indian dog has come here..its the truth my friend.
Whats happened to Maoist states of country…full of atheists and misguided folks
Take Kashmir…full of muslims..wanting a seperate state.
Wherever the hindu goes down in population, that location has always been under seperation.
Hinduism is the foundation for all faiths, if people try to extinguish that faith…then all other religions will collapse with the collapse of Hinduism…Kalki avatar is bound to happen.
I am not against other faiths such as sikhism, jainism, buddhism…these are all off shoots of Hinduism…dharmic religions..they are content within themselves. They are never expansive.
Religions that came out of a forest culture where there is scope of peaceful co-existence.
But look at semetic religions, islam and christianity…fully expansive…inspite of such expansion…what was supposed to be a holy state..paikistan…is fighting within itself…..completely embroiled into fights where one community is trying to wipe the other out.
All this comes with insecurity of the religion.
Please stop arguing that there is nothing wrong with spread of Christianity…its a menace we all will have to deal with…this will not happen in the next 2-3 decades…but after that..its going to be a big mess. We will all repent.
Please take a look at rajiv malhotra’s breaking India…you might get an idea.
@Sympathiser,
I have been to North East. The problem with North east is not about Christianity but the utter neglect of these people by various governments at the centre. When people do not have food and water and basic facilities they will take up arms by joining various movements. The same problem with lack of development is forcing people to join Maoist groups in central India. (Do you think this is also a christian instigated movement).
You are forgetting that many parts of North east militant groups also have tribals amongst their ranks. Now do you think these tribals have also joined militants because of the influence of Christians. Secondly if your argument was correct, then Christians in Goa or Kerala would also have revolted. In Kerala there is a very large population of Christians from hundreds of years. The same in Goa also. So don’t get brainwashed by propaganda. Christians in Kerala, Goa etc. are extremely patriotic. It is the same Christians in Goa who side by side with Hindus fought for independence from Portuguese rule. (Do you think without local goan support – both christian and hindus the Indian army would have been able to liberate goa from Portuguese rule in 1961??)
I say that there is nothing particularly wrong with spread of Christianity peacefully because of two simple reasons:
1) Today almost every Indian middle class household have kids/relatives and so on in Christian countries like Australia, UK, USA, Canada etc. In fact, this has resulted in spreading the teachings of genuine Hinduism globally. And there is no christian country today which forces Hindus to give up their religion and prevents them from practising their religion. So I fail to see how the spread of Christianity will destroy Hindu culture. In fact, when India becomes more prosperous, these Christians who might have only converted for money will revert back to Hindu practices while still going to church….
In fact that is the basic purpose of Hinduism. To lead people to spirituality.
2) I agree that the Bible especially the old testament has lot of violence in it. I also agree that Christians in the previous centuries have been responsible for crimes like slavery, discrimination and cruelty against Hindus and so on. However, to be fair, there is not a single instance where Christ has ever asked his followers to be violent. In fact I have read each of the statements made by Christ. Christ, like Buddha has never said that anyone should indulge in violence ever. (Unlike Muhammad, who has at times, exhorted his followers to kill non-believers). In the last 20-30 years, I have not come across a single well known Christian church which has exhorted its followers to indulge in violence.
So as long as Christians are willing to strictly adhere to the tennets of non-violence, their religious propaganda should be tackled through discussion and debate.
We in India have to kill this culture of mob rule and violence firmly. Only the elected government, that too, through a fair trail should be the sole body authorised to use force and violence. Ancient India was the number 1 liberal country in the world which allowed free thought and diversity in literature (including a sexual treatise like Kamasutra) hundreds and hundreds of years before the western world embraced liberal thinking. That is the true tennet of Hinduism.
Dear Rocky,
you said “However, to be fair, there is not a single instance where Christ has ever asked his followers to be violent.”
Pl refer – http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+19%3A26-27&version=NIV
Having read that, we must also realise that the New testament is never taught in isolation. THe bible is a continuum and the Duetoronomy is a part of it.
In addition, the point is that Christianity by virtue of its preachings attacks the forms of worship of Hindus, it attacks the cultural systems using democracy as a garb. Please visit any church in Bharat, or public programs of conversion attempts by missionaries and you would find it happening.
At the same time, there have been initiatives like well meaning Christians like P.N.Benjamin who has propounded that “Christ’s call to conversion as a turning towards God stands; what it need not imply is conversion to Christianity”. His activities are listed below.
http://birdindia.org/xhtmlphp/birdactivities.php
However, people like him have been largely ignored by the so-called “secular media” because it does not fit their picture. If it is only a change in faith, it is understandable..but in most cases, it is not just that.
Preceding this, you wrote “Today almost every Indian middle class household have kids/relatives and so on in “Christian countries” like Australia, UK, USA, Canada etc..”
Firstly the concept of secularism was propounded in these countries to separate politics from organized religion. In fact secularism in many Western countries esp the United States of America was introduced so that the Church would not exercise its influence on not only politics but also pagan religions which are by and large un-organized. The founding fathers of America which include Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin have been very outspoken about the predatory nature of CHristianity.
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
….and yet the Christian missionaries continue to convert for the sake of uniformity.
Unfortunately, the reverse has happened in Bharat. Hinduism which is largely an un-organized religion wherein the concept of Moksha is individual in nature has been attacked by these organized idealogies/ religions. This forces the Hindus to also get organized as a religious identity.
Dear Arisebharat,
Either you are complete ignorant or completely brain-washed. I referred to the verse that you showed me where ‘Christ says “”But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”
I call you utterly ignorant because Christ is merely relating a story. Let me give you an example, today if I relate the story of Lord Rama and Ravana and tell that “Lord Rama says kill Ravana ” and if you only read my last 2 words you will say that Rocky says ‘kill Ravana’.
In the same way, in the verse that you quoted Christ is only quoting/relating a story. In fact I will cut and paste the full story for you:
[The Parable of the Ten Minas
11 While they were listening to this, he (Jesus) went on to tell them a parable (story), because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12 He said: “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.[a] ‘Put this money to work,’ he said, ‘until I come back.’
14 “But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to be our king.’
15 “He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.
16 “The first one came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned ten more.’
17 “‘Well done, my good servant!’ his master replied. ‘Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.’
18 “The second came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned five more.’
19 “His master answered, ‘You take charge of five cities.’
20 “Then another servant came and said, ‘Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21 I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.’
22 “His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then didn’t you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?’
24 “Then he said to those standing by, ‘Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.’
25 “‘Sir,’ they said, ‘he already has ten!’
26 “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”]
********************
So relating a story is like quoting someone. Today if I quote Bin Laden and say that ‘kill americans’ it does not become my statement…. C’mon Arisebharat. So while relating a story or quote obviously does not become your statement. I thought you had better sense than this.
Please do not mislead people in this way. I have myself read Bible, Quran and Gita not in isolation but the entire paragraphs. And Christ has NEVER ever asked anyone to be violent – ever. Of course there are lots of other instances of violence in the Old testament of the Bible, which you are perfectly correct about.
In fact Christ expressly prohibited violence. In fact when Jesus Christ was arrested one of his disciples drew a sword and attacked one of the soldiers. In fact Christ rebuked his disciple and went out of his way to heal the soldier (which is mentioned in some other part of the Bible).
Read this passage from the same source that you have used :
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+26&version=NIV)
quote :
Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51 With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”
unquote::
So please don’t go by words taken from a sentence. That way every person who quotes Hitler will become Hitler.
Please read the parts of Bible where Christ is speaking. There is not a single verse where he asks that another human being should be beaten or killed. (Unlike Prophet Muhammad who has at times, not hesitated to urge his followers to use violence, if necessary).
As for some other points which you have raised:
1. Please do not quote Gandhiji if you don’t subscribe to his philosophy. Gandhiji was against conversion but under no circumstances did he say that those who want to convert for whatever reason should be stopped by force. Neither did he say that missionaries should not be given the right to preach whatever they believe in.
So let us be very clear on this – Gandhiji stood for complete freedom of speech and expression and preaching of beliefs. (In fact after reading the Bible (especially the new testament) Gandhiji was so impressed that he himself wanted to embrace Christianity. Then he changed his mind when he saw the racism among Christians in South Africa. He understood that racism and apartheid is as bad or even worse than the casteism in Hinduism, so he gave up the idea. Please read this very respectable source on Gandhi and his rejection of the Christian style, but love of Christ.
http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/no-2-religion-yes-2-faith/2011/mar/31/gandhi-glimpsed-christ-rejected-christianity-false/)
In fact, despite not being a baptised Christian I would rate him as a higher follower of Christ and closer to Christ’s spirituality than most of today’s Christians.
Of course, he would definitely advise people to keep their culture, just like he advocated that people should avoid alcohol and avoid meat, but he always preferred to convince people through press and other non-violent means. So if you also subscribe to this philosophy you have full right to quote Gandhi and I would totally agree with you.
We can certainly do our best to convince people through writings etc. to avoid converting for monetary gains out of utter poverty, but if someone wants to convert despite this, it is purely his/her choice. If tomorrow you want to become a Muslim or a Buddhist or even athiest, it is purely your choice. I can only try to dissuade you using logic and arguments, through press etc.
If you agree with me on this, we are on the same page. Using police force, or force of mobs or ‘pseudo-Hindu’ groups like Bajrang Dal goons is totally against the spirit of Gandhi and otherwise also a sign of fascism (or cultural nationalism which in Germany was called Nazism).
2. Yes you are right that Christianity was extremely violent especially in Europe where people were burnt etc. I certainly would not disagree with you on that. Total agree. Even just 7 decades back the madman Hitler killed millions (not for religion, but his definition of ‘pure culture’ people). So we have to get out of that world of violence. And today’s Europe by and large has managed to get out of it. Yet, we Indians are still stuck in 18th century. We are willing to kill people in the name of culture, religion or caste. So this is what is important today…
Violence against any fellow Indian in the name of culture, religion or caste or region (marathi/northie/southerner) is unacceptable. It is his supreme human right to decide what religion he wants to follow and what language he wishes to speak. This is my point. Let us remember that human right is not a gift of any country to any individual, it is the inalienable right of a person SIMPLY BECAUSE HE IS BORN AS A HUMAN.
3. I also went through the link which you put forth, (BIRD Bangalore). I feel that there should be one rule for all Indians. If some Christian groups are doing some land grabbing etc. why is no action being taken against them? Who is responsible for this? Law-breakers – whatever religious garb they come in, should be dealt with as per the existing law. I totally agree with you. I am all for the law of the land (as long as the law is morally right, humane and correct).
{For instance, simply becos it is the law of the land I cannot support it. For instance there is a law in Pakistan called Blasphemy law where any non-muslim who says even a small thing against Prophet Muhammad could be jailed and sent to death. Now this is an utterly stupid law, which is morally discriminatory, against freedom of speech and inhumane. So I am against this law. }
Dear Rocky
It is perfectly fine that you choose to use adjectives like utterly ignorant, brainwashed in your posts. When a person uses these terms, it is clear that he/she is unable to make a case out of what he stands for. When you chose to have a discussion, you must also learn to respect the discussion and the people associated with it. Otherwise, it is fine that you do not choose to have the discussion at all. That is the reason that inspite of all your negative adjectives written over so many posts, there is not a single such statement from our side.
Coming to your post. It is not what Rocky says Or arisebharat says with related to the Bible, it is what is communicated about the Bible by the christian priests to the believers. To take matter further…You rightly pointed out that the story related was the Parable of Minas. Every “prophet” or any leader relates a parable to make a point. While you are looking at a story, it also important to look at the message and the purpose. The purpose of a parable is to drive a message and the setting of where the parable is related is important.
http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2009/06/09/what-does-the-parable-of-the-minas-mean/
http://www.bcbsr.com/survey/pbl40.html
It is fine that some of you may chose to take up a completly different meaning from the parable…but what matters is what is being communicated downline in a church to the believers and what the believers take out of the parable because that is what drives action forward. It is these explanations that over the last two millenium has lead to religious conflicts across the world.
There are many other statements which are
Jesus Christ urged to forgive people for their wrongdoings, but refusing to worship himself Jesus considered to be an unforgivable crime. ‘He who is not with me is against me’ – he explained (Luke, 11/23).
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
(for example, Mathew, 10/36-38);
Finally, having been left alone with his apostles, Jesus Christ openly and honestly confessed: ‘Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law…’ (Mark, 10, 34-35)..
It is these texts and many more such that are attributed as Jesus words inciting conversion not by some layman called arisebharat or Rocky but by the Christian clergy.
2. Then you wrote
Do you know that there are a large number of Muslims apolgists who say the exact reverse of what you are saying and they quote Mohammad about how benevolent he was etc etc.. The fact remains that is not about what you and we beleive about Mohammad, it is about what the Mullah is teaching them and their attitude towards the non-believers.
Some people attribute hatred to Hindu texts also…But fortunately, Hinduism is not a prophet driven religion Or Dharma and therefore, we have the advantage of using our faculties and not being targetted for it. Also Hindu saints, priest and pravachankaars have not preached hatred against other religions but preach analysis of the teachings ( for eg Satyartha Prakash of Swami Dayananda). It is this pluralism that must be defended. Unfortunately, it is this pluralism that is being attacked with government help ( like in Andhra PRadesh) by the exclusivist religions, Christianity and Islam. It is this that you are choosing to ignore.
3. Reg, Gandhiji, again you chose to say that ” if you don’t subscribe to his philosophy, dont quote him”. This is ridiculous. Did you read Gandhiji’s ” Hindu Dharma”. His Hind Swaraj. We work on those principles. He has explicitly stated,
” The average Muslim is a bully, and the average Hindu is a coward and so long as there are cowards, there are bullies.” – (His work on Cause of Communal violence). To counter this he states, that the Hindu must become strong.
We are of the same opinion. THe Hindu must resist not only physical aggression but also idealogical aggression because if idealogical aggression is not countered in time, it eventually leads to physical aggression.
Gandhiji before and after coming back from South Africa are at completly different levels. . After coming back from South Africa, he made a thorough study of the country. While Gandhiji, had respect for the Sermon on the mount, he refuted every attempt to convert him. He was very clearly against conversion and the dangers that it leads to which is amply demonstrated by the series of quotes that we had given you by him.
In fact it is surprising that while we are giving you writings of the Mahatma himself, from the Young India and the Harijan, you chose to quote some “other” respectable source. We trust that you do not have any motive in ignoring the quotes.
You said, that he did not want to use any law to ban conversion. Read on.. The Harijan dated May 11, 1935 published an interview given by Gandhiji to a missionary nurse before that date. The nurse asked him, “would you prevent missionaries coming to India in order to baptize? Gandhiji replied, “If I had power and could legislate, I should certainly stop all proselytizing. It is the cause of much avoidable conflict between classes and unnecessary heart-burning among the missionaries”.
3. Reg, your paras on violence etc, we have not advocated violence and nowhere have we demonstrated that.. We are only demanding that the state power which is being misused to spread religion is causing damage. While the fund from Hindu temples is treated as government money as Endowments, the money from CHurches and Masjids are not. We are for an assertive society which does not take injustice lying down and a Dharmic government which does not play religious vote bank politics.
Regarding the rest of your post that you would oppose a law in Pakistan etc , it is purely therotical since you do not live in Pakistan and neither are you demonstrating any action against the fraudalent means being adopted by Christian missionaries in Bharat.
To close, read the quote from one more luminary of our country, regarding the dangers of conversion,.
” And then every man going out of the Hindu pale is not only a man less, but an enemy the more.” – Swami Vivekananda in His Complete Works, Volume 5.
Dear Arise Bharat,
I have both Christian and Hindu family members in my family. Hence I have the benefit of viewpoints from both sources.
First of all we must do away with this assumption that Christianity or Islam are not the ‘real’ Indian cultures, but foreign cultures.
Islam is there for several hundreds of years and Christianity was supposed to have come to India in the second century AD. So for almost 1800 years it is there in India. In fact, Christianity reached India even before it reached Europe. So let us not keep working under the so-called assumption that these are ‘foreign’ religions. There are so many historians who say that Aryans themselves migrated to India. So can we also conclude that the Vedic-Aryan civilisation is ‘foreign’ to India?
So let us not behave as if the monopoly of ‘Indian culture’ is equivalent to ‘Hindu culture’.
The tradition of Moplah muslims, the ancient Christians of Kerala, the Parsis of India and the Jews of ancient India should be all part of the Indian culture.
Please remember that India believed in Vasudev Kutumbakam, the principle of ‘one human family’ long before this principle has been even thought of in Europe or America.
But the ‘pseudo Hindu’ movement in India by group of violent groups like Shiv Sena and sections of BJP including the rakshasa/asuric forces like Modi and others are leading the genuine followers of Hinduism astray.
Now regarding conversions, let us ask this question carefully. There are close to 3 million Indians who live in US. How many have actually converted to Christian religions. Very few.
If you know US is like the headquarters of most missionary Christian movements. Despite that the 3 million Hindus live in US comfortably, going to their temples. In fact, even the government of US has slowly started recognising Hindu festivals like Diwali etc. The same is the situation in UK. There are people who keep spreading the message of Christianity in both US and UK and Europe and there are others who spread the message of Hindu movements like Hare Krishna or various swamis like Sri Sri or Amritanandamayi or others. Similarly some Muslim groups also spread their messages. There is no problem. No one bothers to emotionalise these things and make a big fuss.
So the point I am trying to make is that, the root cause of conversions in India is poor governance and lack of opportunities especially for lower castes etc. Once these issues are addressed, then automatically the conversion by money will stop because those who convert will have no incentive.
However, I think like most Indians you are also a hypocrite. While you do not mind Hindu organisations like Hare Krishna or Amritanandamayi getting more converts in foreign countries, you do not want the Christian missionaries to convert any Indians.
Wow… what a hypocrite you are… You want the freedom to preach all religions in US or Europe or UK so that Hindu organisations can preach their own teachings, but you do not want that environment in India because you feel some Indian Hindus might be swayed !! Talk of double standards.
In fact, I do not see any issue here. In the west, the Hindu organisations take advantage of the emotional poverty of westerners to entice them to give up attending church and adopt some Hindu practices like Yoga, meditation, chanting etc.
Similarly, the christian organisations take advantage of the financial poverty of some Hindus to entice them to Christianity.
As long as there is no coercion or force involved, in either case, as long as the people concerned (the convertor and the converted) are both aware of what they are doing, the government or other individuals have no business in this.
@ Rocky, We are glad that you have put in lot of thought in replying and not just done an adhoc reply. At the same time, we are disappointed that you chose to make a judgemental call of hypocricy without discussion. From your other comments, it seems that you do not live in Bharat. Therefore, it is clear that while you may sympathise with the situation in Bharat, you are not experiencing the problem first hand.
COming to your points..
1. Islam did not come to India by peaceful means. It did come as an invading creed. But that is not the issue. The Parsis and Jews have also come into Bharat, but the leadership of the community has done more than its bit for Bharat. Also, there has been no issue with the Hindus and them.
Secondly, we have no issue with the common Muslim. In fact, we are aware of moderate Muslims who themselves are stifled in the society. Even marginal groups like Ahmediyas and Bahais have been attacked by the dominant Sunni groups. The real issue is with the Islamic leadership which is extremist and disowns even a great person like Dr.Kalam as not a good muslim. ( read Dr.Rafiq Zakaria on Kalam ) . This is the leadership which spews venom on the name of Jehad and has polarised the society , not hte other way round. Regarding Moplah, please read the Moplah riots. The history of Bharat is replete with incidents of how there are riots in every place where the Muslims turn more than 20%. IN fact even in Hyderabad district , in Secunderabad ( which is twin city of Hyd) there are no riots where the Muslims are less than 5%. The riots happen only in Hyderabad. It shows that Hindus and the Hindu movements exercise great restraint.
Reg Christianity, the myth of St.Thomas was recently disowned by Pope Bentinck himself, so this farce of Christianity coming to Kerala in 2nd century is well exposed. HOwever, that again is not the issue. The issue is that the Christianity has a history of inquisition…not only in India but the whole world…Please read the Goa Inquisition and also how pagan cultures were destroyed all over the world by Christian crusaders.
We are not against propagation of a faith but conversion by fraud and spreading venom against Gods and goddesses ( hear any missionary speaking in Bharat and you will know what I am talking about ) . As per the constitution of this land, this is unlawful. That is what we are protesting and exposing. What is wrong in it ?
If ISKON is working against the land in Europe of US, they must be acted upon. My knowledge is that they have not been unlawful.
Finally, on your contention of Aryans, the myth of aryan invasion has been exposed by numerous historians esp from the West. The BBC itself exposed it as a conspiracy of the Britishers ( please read the article in this blog). The core culture of this land is Sanatana Dharma and the concepts that almost all the Indian administration has borrowed are from that.
We are happy that there are well intentioned people like you who want the country to develop, but feel disappointed that you come to conclusions too early.
Let us look at your arguments:
1. To say that Islam or Christianity never reached any land except by force would be wrong. I do accept that these religions did use force (in the arrogance that their way alone is the right way), but in some cases they also spread because of the amazing conviction of the preachers and their tireless efforts.
Again, perhaps the issue is irrelevant, because today whether they are Christians or Hindus or Parsis is irrelevant, because we must start with the basic premise that every Indian is an Indian first and last. The matter of his religion, his caste or his language is his personal matter and the law of the land must not differentiate based on this.
2. We live in a globalised world today, not the India made of hundreds of small or big kingdoms which was the case maybe 300 or more years back.
We have to accept the global, liberal thinking that as human race, every human being must have human rights. These rights are not a charity given by the country within which he lives, but these rights come to him because he is born human.
But please remember that this feeling is not a western thinking. This is very much there in the true Hindu ethos of ‘Vasudev Kutumbakam’.
I have lived in India (or Bharat as you insist on calling) for several years before I moved to the west.
About Muslims, they have a right to live their lives the way they want as long as they do not break laws meant to protect the freedom of everyone.
Just because other Indians believe that all gods lead to the same path, does not mean that if a group believes that only their god (allah) is true, we have a right to force them to accept our belief system by force. (If they are not using violence.)
Of course, we can try to convert their line of thinking by using education, exchange of thoughts etc. but use of violence is not acceptable ever to change belief systems/convictions, as long as they do not break the freedoms of other people.
If tomorrow you Mr. Arise bharat, believe that allah or Christ or some X or Y is the only god and all other religions are bullshit, then I will certainly want to protect all your rights as an individual, even though I may totally disagree with you.
That is what is called true tolerance which is what true Hinduism is all about.
Today’s pseudo Hinduism is becoming more and more intolerant and after some time, I am afraid it will increasing start looking like a copy of the intolerant Islam.
Now, if your faith is true and if someone derides your religion, you must reply to that person at the same intellectual level of debate and discussion. That is the cultured way and the true Hindu way. (Not the muslim way of trying to kill Salman Rushdie becos he writes some thing which he himself has acknowledged is pure fiction.)
Replying to insults or arguments made by missionaries by violence or threat of violence is certainly neither cultured nor Hindu.
Regarding your comment about St. Thomas in 2nd AD, please show me one source where Pope Benedict has called it a myth. Please do not quote or twist history as you would like to see it. There is even a church devoted to St. Thomas and the catholics in kerala even follow a separate religious rite than the catholics in western countries. In fact, the Europeans would like to call Christianity a western concept but the matter of fact is that Christianity reached India first (before Europe). Unfortunately the Indians who originally embraced Christianity believed in tolerance and never believed in conversions. So they peacefully co-existed and thrived along with Hindus in Kerala. Later on, the Christianity was taken over by Westerns who brought their organised work habits and rational thinking to increase the numbers in the religion. That is why today we see a more organised Christianity. Please study this matter carefully. (Also you can remember that in fact many of the ‘Hindu’ organisations may be taken over by westerners slowly as a result of globalisation. For instance several yoga schools in the west are being run professionally, organised and run purely by the westerners, without any influence of Indians. Similarly the ISKON also has many people in their hierarchy who were white westerners.)
As I mentioned earlier in my post there are close to 3 million Indians (majority of them Hindus) in US. In US also, being a liberal country, some missionaries do speak ill of other religions. Similarly some of the Hindu seers and saints speak about the bad effects of western civilisation like alcohol or non-veg although they might not speak directly against Jesus or Mary (simply because that is against Hindu ethos to denigrate other gods).
But even if they speak against western civilisation, or missionaries speak against Hindu gods, no one gets worked up and all emotional and hyper like they do in India.
Today Indians in America are among the highest earning groups and are thriving in a logical, fair, merit based system. They have freedom to worship, celebrate their own festivals and all that.
Only the messiness, pollution, violence, corruption of India is absent.
Why can’t we work towards creation of such an India, instead of harping upon non-issues?
Finally regarding your comment on ‘core’ culture of India. If any religion is there for hundreds and thousands of years, certainly it is a Core culture of India.
Sikhism, Christianity, Islam, Jewish and Zoroastrianism are all core religions of India along with Hindu thought.
Indians are staying in UK for only one or two hundred years at the most, but yet today Britain accepts all racial mixes as their own. Even blacks and Asians citizens call themselves Britishers.
And people like you want to say that Christianity and Islam which have been in India for hundreds and hundreds of years are not core to India? How many more hundreds of years should these religions remain in India to be considered ‘core’?
Think about it. The pseudo-Hindu organisations thriving in the climate where there is only a third rate corrupt party (Congress) is ruling in the country, is using this kind of divide and rule strategy of ‘core’ versus ‘non-core’ to create a country of ‘pure’ cultural nationalism (similar to the national socialism of Hitler). The consequences can be dangerous for a country consisting of billions of people.
Let us move away from this dirty philosophy and try to create one India where every human being who is an Indian (by birth or by taking citizenship) can feel proud to say he is an Indian.
A clean, honest India, driven by systems, rule of law and without discrimination against any Indian (whether the Hindu in Kashmir or the Muslim in Gujarat).
@ Rocky, We think that the problems of the land will be resolved only when we have an assertive government which is secular in the true sense of the word and does not appease. As long as the administration is run on vote banks, the aggressors would continue to run scot free.
Regarding the myth of St.Thomas and Pope Benedict, it is you who seem to be blinded and do not want to see the other side of the story. If you were true, then you would have responded to me after doing atleast some research on the points that we raised, i.e, the Goan inquisition and the blood soaked history of Christian missionaries in the entire world including Bharat.
Since you ask for “atleast” on source which quotes Pope Benedict, please find the same below
http://www.rediff.com/news/2006/nov/22pope.htm
http://apostlethomasindia.wordpress.com/2011/08/11/pope-denies-st-thomas-evangelized-south-india-ishwar-sharan/
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/hhce/Ch21.htm
Now we trust you would be honest enough to explore further on the links above and if possible write to the Pope seeking clarification.
Regarding organized Christianity being the problem, yes that is what we had indicated also in the article. The problem is not about a few people believing a different God. We are fully for each one having his own path. They are free to believe in whatever they want. But freedom ends where my nose starts. The problem comes when the use state machinery and funds to defraud gullible people and turning conversion into a multi-million dollar industry and thereby trying to wield power over nations.
Since you seem to be using plural we, let me also use we.
We have read the links that you provided. Most of the links simply state that a ‘controversy’ has been created because the pope omitted to mention something.
We can likewise show you several links which says Lord Ram does not exist or that Jesus himself never existed.
But we have to always take a balanced approach in this regard.
The existence of Ram is a matter of belief of millions of people in India and there are some historical evidence of his existence. You will always find some stray links which question the existence of Krishna or Rama or Jesus. Please don’t use internet selectively. All sorts of theories are easily found on the internet and some controversies created through stray comments.
Similarly, despite the presence of some links the majority-accepted view, is that St. Thomas was there and that he did land in India. If you know a little more about christianity, you will know that there are separate rites of worship for catholics in kerala (syro-malabar rites, as opposed to latin rites in the rest of the world). Even the pope is aware of that.
If the pope truly believed that St. Thomas never came to India, why does he permit a separate rites of worship for chrisitans in Kerala. There is an Indian Cardinal (his name we forget) who has a chance of becoming the pope but he practices the syro-malabar rites of worship.
For your information, India is not the only case where Christianity reached earlier than in Europe. It reached some parts of what is today called ‘middle-east’ Lebanon also earlier than it reached Christianity.
Of course, Europeans/westerners have a vested interest in depicting Christianity as a ‘western’ religion and showing that the rest of the world was ‘given’ christianity by the kindness/hard work of European missionaries who toiled hard. In fact this conveniently fits the western paradigm of ‘we civilised the natives’. Therefore they would like to discredit every attempt to show that Christianity took roots in other countries before it reached Europe.
Regarding the third article, to say that St. Thomas was created because catholic church needed a martyr is ludicrous. Catholic church has enough martyrs of its own. It is like saying that all actions of deceit mentioned in Mahabharata war is only mentioned to malign Lord Krishna.
Freedom ends where your nose begins. Wise saying. I totally agree with you. But if you tomorrow decide to convert on your own, (whether by accepting money, or by belief or whatever else), it is purely your personal business, not my business or the business of pseudo-Hindu organisations, or Islamic organisations or the government.
The role of the government is only to protect the individual citizens against cheating, violation of agreement, physical coercion or violence.
When an individual knowing fully well his choices, exerts it, (as long as they are his personal choices), the government or any organisation has no right to interfere.
Personally, we are against conversion by one religion to another by using financial tactics or emotional tactics (taking in people who are drug addicts, depressed etc. and indoctrinating them with dose of religion).
However, if clearly a person is doing it on his own, other people do not have any business to interfere.
Most developed countries have accepted this simple truth.
Even while I was in US, I had met some bible person on the plane, who wanted to discuss about his church and was persuading me to join that particular church (even promising benefits etc.).
But then I politely declined. However, for whatever he preached, I would never want to deny him his right to preach his system of beliefs. He is like a salesman who sells a particular shampoo. If you do not want to buy the shampoo, don’t buy it, but certainly do not deny him the right to talk about his product/belief.
Similarly, if some person wants to buy that shampoo, it is purely his/her personal business, not the business of some mob groups.
Let us not be stuck in the 17th century time-piece of ‘Indian culture’ and operate in the climate of fear for survival of Hinduism. Today many ‘pseudo-Hindu’ groups have fanned this fear and recruiting several poor people into their ranks to embark on this path of violence (based on fear, hatred and aggression).
Instead, slowly, these groups are themselves becoming like the copy of some muslim militant groups, that they oppose.
The ancient, real, true spirit of Hinduism is liberalism, tolerance of divergent beliefs (even beliefs which deny the existence of any gods).
Lastly every person born in India whether he affirms his faith in sanatana dharma or not or whether he is a supporter of pakistan cricket team has an equal right to live, stay, prosper in this country.
The right of a person to live, thrive, work and be free in his own country (as long as he does not crush the freedom of others), must be sacred and not depend on the will of others who call themselves majority. The majority may be because of caste, religion or language spoken.
In other words, I am also affirming here that Kashmiri pandits have every right to stay in their homes without being driven out by muslims.
@ Rocky,
WE use We because the Arisebharat team is a We.. Your response to the links is surprising. You asked for atleast one reference. We gave you. Then you suddenly jump the issue to Rama.. On one hand you have the Pope indicating that St.Thomas came only to the Western parts of Bharat and you suddenly jump to his defence saying that many people question Rama. “Many people” are not the same as the “authoritative postion” the pope is in for Christians. For any comparison, you should have been researching a Shankaracharya or a person of that level who says that Rama did not exist.
We have reiterated in the past and also do so now that we are not against Christianity but will protest any form of conversion through fraud and abuse of Hindu Gods.
At the same time, we definitely support initiatives like BIRD run by Mr.Benjamin.
The rest of your comment on this issue is nothing that we find anything objectionable.
My dear friend,
First you go through the links provided in this article what christianity is,which is all crusades. what the right you have to raise questions about Hinduism.
You told that Christianity and islam are indian culture.This itself represents your ambiguity in understanding religion and culture.These two are foreign religions in addition many religions,where the religion means one man ,one book and one God only.The culture represents to a particular groupd of people with particular borders. you are mixing these both and drawing your own conclusion which is baseless.Islam and christinity are just hundreds of years only.
but Hindu Dharma is of lakhs and crores of years,with which you can not compare.And why we are speaking only these 2 foreign religions,when there are so many other foreign religions.Because these 2 are the only religions which are promoting separatism in this land or in Hindus. where as the other(religions)s are not.
It is foolishness to comment history unless knowing the facts. Now the worlwide historians proved that aryan invasion is myth and the word represents the ‘nobleness’. we the Hindus are the only people below to this land,which is proved by the DNA test also.Parsis of India never tried to convert people and woo for monetary funds and never encourage for separitism.
Teh quotation ‘vasudhaiva kutumbakam’ is in Hindus only not in bible or quran. So teach these points in out of India not to Hindus.If Hindus dont thinks this Today there will be only Hindus in Bharat.
Coming to Conversions,the people who are outside India never tried to convert others.Who are converting to Hinduism only because of our values. If Hindus want to convert 100 years back itself Swami Vivekananda would have done it.
I agree with you some extent that the root cause of conversion is poverty.But if it is true then what about the so called upper castes. It is foolishness that without knowing the basics fo your own history,your own culture and commenting about culture and conversion. Having christians and hindus as family members does not represent secular. So Don’t be hypocryte,First know what you are and who are.
@ Mastan,
Due to paucity of time, I will give a quick reply.
In the west, the Hindu organisations take advantage of the emotional poverty of westerners to entice them to give up attending church and adopt some Hindu practices like Yoga, meditation, chanting etc.
Similarly, the christian organisations take advantage of the financial poverty of some Hindus to entice them to Christianity.
So let us stop being hypocritical here.
By the way, I like your sense of double standards…
You say, “Who are converting to Hinduism only because of our values.”
Those who convert to Hinduism all over the world, do only because of values, whereas those Hindus who convert to other religions always convert because of money or force. (In other words, in your opinion, other religions have no values… 🙂 )
As Lord Krishna said in Gita, you must accept that for different people at different levels of intellect, different religious ways might be more suitable.
I think you need to stop thinking in such black and white terms based on some propaganda of some groups.
Of course having said this, I am a liberal and am against any conversions by use of force or conversion of people who are mentally sick, below 18, illiterate or disabled.
If money is involved, as long as the converted and the converter know what they are doing, it is purely their personal problem. If a woman marries an old man for his money and his well aware that he may not be able to keep her happy; as long as the bride and groom know what they are doing, why should you or me be against it.
The laws of the state or other mob groups should not interfere in the area of personal freedoms.
Hi Rocky,
I agree with the Gita ‘you must accept that for different people at different levels of intellect, different religious ways might be more suitable’,But it does not imply that forcefully whatever you wish. Conversion at the level of belief and understanding is accepted, not but on betrayal or attacking the others.you can promote your religion but can not scold the others. The christianity is doing this thing from hundreds of years.It is not based on Propaganda. It is my own experience where every day in the church used to comment the Hindu Gods,which is not tolerable. you can easily find in each every village inIndia these type of people. So come to the ground level facts and know the reality .
In the west, the Hindu organisations take advantage of the emotional poverty of westerners to entice them to give up attending church and adopt some Hindu practices like Yoga, meditation, chanting etc.
Similarly, the christian organisations take advantage of the financial poverty of some Hindus to entice them to Christianity.
So let us stop being hypocritical here.
If some people comment on Hindu gods, combat them on the intellectual level.
Encourage people using non-violent tactics to avoid them/boycott those groups. No violence or force should be involved.
C’mon Mastan grow up. While I was in Europe I have seen so many newspaper articles and books which claimed that Jesus was a homosexual. But I did not see mobs of fanatics like you crowding the bookstalls and burning the books. Neither did I see anyone wanting to throw the author out of Europe.
Even I have seen so many paintings in European art galleries, which depict Jesus or Mary in the nude. But I have not seen Christian mobs sanctioned by pope or others coming and forcing the artist out of the country or burning the house of the artist. (Just like some pseudo-Hindu groups chased out MF Hussein from India).
We are in 21st century. Let us accept freedom of thoughts and stop acting like junior talibans (trying to kill all those who ‘denigrate’ the prophet).
And those are so fond of Islamic tactics of violence and intolerance of free thoughts (even artistic expressions) can join those Islamic groups or some groups like Shiv Sena or MNS which freely believe in intimidation, violence or force against even other Indians.
Let them not spoil the name of genuine Hinduism, because I believe that true Hinduism practised liberal thinking, freedom of thought even before it happened in the west.
For example, when Lord Ram heard the dhobi talking ill about Sita, he did not get the dhobi killed, despite the fact that he was the king of the land. Instead he himself sacrificed Sita.
That is true Hinduism for you.
How do you claim modi to be violent irrespective of the fact that he is exonerated by the SIT?
Do you know what is Rss?….do you know the amount of social services they r involved in?
Simply don’t conclude by what the meedia shows on tv…..
Pls do some reading before commenting ierrational
@Humanity, Don’t be so fanatic about your own religion just because you are born into it. In your next life you may be born in a devout Muslim or some other family… About Modi please read about what other sincere Hindu officers have written. See this link – http://www.countercurrents.org/sreekumar270212.htm
Don’t go by the emotions but just go by the facts mentioned in this report of how Modi cleverly organised the riots and made sure maximum innocent Muslims will be killed. See, I have nothing personal against Modi. If he had used the fair rule of law and justice machinery to punish all the Muslim rioters who participated in the Godhra train burning, I would have appreciated him and supported him very much. I am against Congress party because it is not able to punish Kasab or Afzal Guru who have been sentenced by the courts also. But I want a fair system of law and order, not some monster like Modi who will not protect even women and children under his rule (just to punish some members of the community).
India should be a country which gives protection to all its citizens including Kashmiri Pandits and Gujrati muslims. We need to develop India like USA and Europe not take it into 16th century.
Dear @Rocky:
You only digress from the main topic of discussion here…its about rampant conversion activities…which we as Hindus will thoroughly protest as it only tries to state Christianity is better than Hinduism….Christians have done a lot of evils…something even the followers of islam haven’t done yet…so pls do not try to support christian conversion agenda for it only sells based on the assumption that it is better than Hinduism or any other religion for that matter.
I can prove you fact by fact that Christianity is inferior to Hinduism, if you want to..but i will not do that…for I do respect a human being’s faith…coz all paths invariably leads to the same end result…and that does not mean one can convert anyone or root out his beliefs by deceit. Let christians missionaries go around and do their jobs in some communist country where there is no faith.
Coming to your points about Modi, Modi has never been proven guilty even by the highest accord the SIT. The SIT rejects all the false claims made against Modi. The media and people are bought out by evil institutions like congress/vatican city or some vested interests.
The only problem is that they will not be able to handle modi if he comes into power, he will set a model for the future of non-corrupt govt which the bit*h sonia and co will not be a match for.
You believe or trust a sreekumar who has no way to prove his beliefs…if he would have been that sure abt Modi’s involvement…why not he himself go ahead and prove it to the SIT???
I dont go by emotions on this issue my friend…we all go by facts either read or heard off or seen…in my case it is having read.
The anger or frustration of people against the Muslims has been there from time-immemorial for their attitude towards other religions..note m not talking against all of them..its their rulers, the radical ones …unfortunately muslims are represented by those.
If you ever had read about the rule of the mughals, the ghaznis against hindus, the massacres commited against hindus by muslims…any Hindu or any sympathetic Hindu will get enraged when muslims get to commit atrocities against humanity…Gujrat has faced some of the worst atrocities in time..right since the destruction of somnath temple in the 1000…so people remember all these atrocities and will give back when the muslims run rampage.
Imagining the brutal massacre of the train victims enrages any sane hindu…so I would conclude that the riots that happened in gujrat was a reflection of the Hindu resentment and not a pogrom of Modi or his team to planfully conduct the massacres..
If you are measuring Modi for not having reacted against hindus…do you justify Assam violence conducted against Hindus n christians by muslims/bangladeshis…why wasnt tarun gogoi able to stop it?
why was rajiv gandi sitting silent when 3500 sikhs were butchered by congress folks when indira gandi died??
You see its a fashion today to maim and target Modi n BJP…coz that easy for you to do by being influenced by the stupid media…whose job is to show the news but not make conclusions or decisions…the court is supposed to do it.
It has done..SIT has confirmed Modi is innocent after interviewing him for 7 hours.
The judges in SIT were muslims mainly, ask the people of gujrat if they are happy with modi…people of India dont know him clearly…its a gimmick of the congress and all vested interested people to defame him.
In gujrat riots only muslims didnt die….around 200+ hindus also died..so if modi wanted to butcher muslims..hindus would have been spared.
Please think from a fair angle before judging mr.MODI
I am not a fan of Modi either but i dont support biased view abt him either.
I am a US citizen i know the history of how US and Europe and how they did the witch hunting and killed or converted people who did not observe their faith….they always use the media to their disposal.
Do you know what all laws they passed in America and South America to root out the indigenous people like the red Indians, or butcher the mayans and Incas?
Do you these are the same people who brought slaves from Africa
Do you know these are the same people who praticised racism in the europe and America even till this day?
Do you know how america successfully wipes out other countries cultures?
Dont white wash the American or European history and their current stand against the world?
They have the biggest tool that controls every body’s thought process…the news Media.
Even today on trains i see how american whites think 3-4 times before sitting beside a desi..irrespective of you being a xian or a hindu or a paki..
Dont think that these are some morally right people….
Looking at all their dirty attitude,
I can only conclude how good our Hindus and Hindu rulers are…they are true gems!
The congress has not hung kasab is because they are trying to get more n more information out of him.
Afzal guru has not been hung because of a crook like yasin malik who is plannign to create a roucus in kashmir through some stupid kashmir independence movement…wait until india crushes that crook.
I dont squarely blame congress for it completely without knowing their good tasks in the last few years aswell.
Congress government has done some good task in the last couple of years…let me site them out for you.
They have built so much of confidence in neighbouring nations of our enemies like iran/afghanistan/saudis for handling pak and vietnam/laos/burma/tajikstan to curb n control china.
They have done all this to ensure pakistan/china jointly doesnt attack india once US evacuates after 2014. They have done a decent job there aswell.
They have done little good but corruption ..i dont like to wait a second before throwing slush at them.
But i wont spare sonia for making India the christian conversion hub either…that’s unfair too.
So all i am trying to say to you is that these are my viewpoints…which might help you in changing the way you think at modi or congress.
Another view point to stop buying the media shit/ some random guy’s blog and going by facts.
For your comment “Don’t be so fanatic about your own religion just because you are born into it. In your next life you may be born in a devout Muslim or some other family”
I don’t care what happens to me in my next janma, for this janma i have the debt of my motherland to clear…saving the hindu civilization/culture.
I am not a fanatic..but i am very sympathetic about my culture and civilization.
If you really want to know the truth about how the civilization/culture/people have been tortured or destroyed…take a look
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/siii/ch7.htm
http://rajivmalhotradiscussions.blogspot.com/2012/02/digesting-civilizations-vs-assimilating.html
Hi all,
Every individual loves his own religion and every individual has his own faith gods.
but why Hindus get afraid that if listen to the gospel of christ , maiy hindus convert, that is why you hindus behave rudely as devils against christians , never give value to your own values. you even kill and rape belivers.
Why is it that Christians in Christian dominated states like Nagaland oppose and exterminate non-Christian workers. Why is that the church sponsored terrorist activities flourish in the North East. As I said earlier, it is the Christians who have raped and killed non-believers across the world including Bharat. Have you heard about the Goa inquisition where lacs of Hindus were butchered in Goa by the Portuguese just because they were non-Christians and refused to convert.
The track record of christians suggest that they play low only till they are a majority. Once they reach a sizeable number, then they start attacking the non-christians. It is a strategy that has been played all over the world. So dont try to fool around talking about peace and love.
please enlighten yourself. http://www.jesusneverexited.com
Dear “Chosen One” of the exclusivist faith,
What happened to all the native traditions and faths of those lands where Church entered ? Latin America, Europe, America, ….?
Do not preach us, try elsewhere.
Dear “chosen one” of the exclusivist faith.
Please do not preach us.
Could you explain what became of the native faiths of Latin, Central, North Americas, of Europe, of other lands where Christianity entered ?
Oh come one friend.
– An Idolator (because I believe the Omnipotent, Omniscient manifest as this creation, exists in the Idol too, which we use for easier understanding and focus)
We all need to plan for a long term to break their dreams.Such as
1. Take control of all media which is driven by @#$ people.
2. Spread knowledge,information on history and rich culture which will help our people to differentiate between reality and fraud.
3. Unit all of us under one roof.
4. Oppose such people/(may be relatives) in public if they are involve in such of activities.
5. Stop voting Congress and only Vote who posses characteristic of Indian culture.
6. Create our own media channels and spread actual knowledge.
7. Don’t ignore small activity , movement by such #*** people.
8. Keep eye and resist them if they try to mimic our style to spread their #$##
the author is a very narrow minded fellow and who ever is supporting his views and comments against christianity is like wise the same. Most of the people do not know what the christianity has done for the betterment of the poor people in india. if today the india is shining because of christians prayer for the nation and harmony among the people. and more over christianity teaches to forgive those who hate you. not like hindutva eye for eye and tooth for tooth. if this is the ideology hindutva continues there will blood shed all over the country and then the whole nation will be under the threat .
Christian crusades have had the bloodiest history in the world and have been the cause of extermination of millions of native people across the world. You would do good to study the Christian history of Europe and America to understand what Christianity did to the natives there before you preach peace to the Hindus.
The Hindus understand what peace means better than any other civilization in the world and we have now realized that these predatory converting creeds are just wolf in sheeps clothing.
your repsonse itself shows who is narrow minded mr Anant.yes we know that what christianity has done for India.Before what has done for Poor people know how they became poor and what is the reason.If today India is shining because of prayers,Most of the places in the world are not shining so u r not praying for them.or u r the reason behind them. If Hindutva is ey for eye,then today we do’nt see any christian or muslim in Bharat. While drinking milk,the closed eyes cat thinks that no one are watching.In the same way,All of the world knows what Christianity is.
I agree with Mastan. Christianity and Islam have together killed more people in the name of religion than many wars put together. In case of Muslims they are still killing people (both fellow Muslims and non-muslims) in huge numbers. Most of the current conflict zones in the world are those in which Muslims are involved or bordered by Muslim majority countries.
However, if Hindus do not watch themselves carefully and join ‘pseudo-Hindu’ organisations, they will catch up these religions. Instead of trying to work for a fair, liberal, justice-minded, well governed India which respects all its citizens equally, some of us are becoming part of organisations which believe in ‘us’ and ‘them’ , dividing India along communal lines.
Any organisation which tries to classify Indians based on caste, religion or language or region is dangerous for this country.
We need a political party of professionals, liberals and educated Indians who want to make India a developed country, not the congress with its corruption and appeasement of minority policies, nor the ‘BJP with its nazi-type ultra nationalism and ‘as long as the killed one is non-Hindu we have no problem’ attitude.
Both are dangerous to the country. The Italian born madam and the Pakistani born partition-scarred old man.
Mr.author ,before speaking about this conversion you should have studied about the reasons for Christian conversions on rise….well I give …
conversion is high among lower castes who were thrown out from temples by people from your c**** ……so just shut the hell and start treating people with some respect.It is just because of the upper caste Hindus ,these people are moving towards others…..
The author has well studied the reasons for Christian conversion. Well, there is no caste in South Korea why is conversion on the rise there. There is no caste in Sudan, why has the country recently faced a civil war and have carved a new Christian nation.
While each nation has its weakness, the Indians have indulged in self-flagellating before even trying to understand the evil design of the Christian conversion machinery.
@Rahul … I guess the fact is that not only the lower cast people get converted, but the poor people get converted! Do you get hints? Well, talk to few people who got converted recently you would know.
Poverty is the main reason for conversion to any religion.
Emotional poverty is the reason for conversion to Islam in the west and for conversion to specialised Hindu groups like Hare Krishna. (These days in European cities in street squares Hare Krishnas can be seen preaching.)
Financial poverty/lack of governance is the main reason for conversion to Christianity.
Religions like Zoroastrianism (Parsis), Jews and Hindus do not believe in conversion. That is against their religious ethos.
Some ‘pseudo-hindu’ groups have emerged and want to emulate Islam/Christianity, but they go against the grain of true Hinduism.
Parsis are going down the road to even extinction, but refuse to convert others into their religion. On the other hand, there are close to 1 billion Hindus in the world today (much larger than the population of Hindus say in 1900 or 1960), but some ‘pseudo-Hindu’ groups continue to propagate the myth that Hinduism is about to die. How funny is that…?
I am with Samavedam Sarmagaru. what ever he said is correct. every person wants to hand over his hard earned property to his kins it is too similar to that. the divine knowledge which we received from our ancestors should pass on to our younger generations, for this sake we must fight against this conversion and so called secularism. Spiritualism preaches about eashwara, but chrisrians what they preaches is untrue. what they preaches and follow is different.
Well said Laxmi.
And to pass that ‘divine’ knowledge to the future, you are willing to support asuric (demonic) individuals like Modi or Thackerey or Bajrang Dal types who will not hesitate to killl innocents.
(For eg. Dara Singh who killed even the younger children of Australian missionaries Steines. I would not have minded at all, if the due process of law punished the missionaries for fraudulent conversions, but killing of innocent children…..!!)
Remember that demons can get incarnated in any religion. Some examples of demons (rakshasa births) in Chrisitianity – Stalin, Hitler etc.
Other demons in Islam – Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein (who gassed his own countrymen).
Similarly, I believe that people like Bal Thackerey have been blessed with demi-rakshasa spirits.
How do you identify a rakshasa/asura spirit versus a divine spirit?
Very simple. The raskshasas enjoy killing and violence even innocent people. Only a political, ideological or some other excuse is enough for them.
On the other hand, see the best example of a divine spirit- Mahatma Gandhi. Even though he had strong ideology he never promoted violence. He said “there are many causes for which I am willing to die, but there is NO cause for which I am willing to kill….”.
Wow..what a profound statement.
Similarly, look at another divine person Jesus. When one of his disciple used a sword to resist the arrest of Jesus and injured one soldier, Jesus is said to have used his spiritual powers to heal that person immediately.
Same with Lord Buddha.
Lord Krishna and Lord Rama, used violence as a last resort, but it is clear they are divine because they never used a violent situation as an excuse to kill innocent people.
In fact, despite being born as brother of Ravana, Lord Ram embraced him and treated him with honour. (Contrast this with the philosophy of many asuric ‘pseudo-Hindu’ organisations which say that if someone is Muslim, probably he/she is less patriotic… The same violent philosophy that led Modi and his henchmen to butcher innocent Muslims to avenge Godra train killings of Hindus…. No one would have faulted Modi if he had used the due process of law to bring those who are guilty in the train incident to book. But Modi preferred the mafia-style rakshasa philosophy.)
dear all
This is ridiculous to see such un founding fear. Fear out of fundamentalism takes an ugly turn.The so called preachers of Hindu faith just survive on spreading this kind of hatred against people of other faiths. This happens because they do not respect either divinity or humanity. These highly selfish and arrogant beings can not under stand any scripture.hence they misquote and misrepresent scriptures.They speak as they like because there is no regulating mechanism intrinsically. press and officials just do not respond to such people for the fear of public ire. It is always these Hindu preachers deceive gullible Hindus who never cared to check with the scriptures. Look at the mushrooming ashramas which just grab any government land and causing much inconvenience to the locals near by. Christianity reason out things, its theology comes down to the common man. Of course Christ did the same thing. He showed God to people in kindness rather than cruel sacrifices. If any one respects human life he or she is a christian. If you have a message that the whole world could listen. Take a challenge and do it. If you do not have one just shut up. Do not blame others. Buddhism born on Indian soil has its message spread across the globe.why not Shanmuga sharma do that. instead of bleeding for others.
@Nelsonbabu, Christian crusaders have destroyed civilizations, killing millions all over the world and they are on an unfinished agenda in Asia. The cruelty that Christian missionaries have exhibited over centuries is at par only by their cousins, the Islamic Jehadis. So it would be good if you do some reading about crusades before commenting on Hindu ashramas.
HI
THIS WILL CONTINUE TILL A STRONG REVOLT… ONE WHICH IS UNWAVERING AND PERSISTANT WILL ARISE FROM THE HINDUS… ALSO MAJOR REASON PEOPLE GET CONVERTED IS DUE TO CLAIMS OF HEALINGS … WELL I CHALLENGE ANY PASTOR TO HEAL A SMALL BLEEDING CUT RIGHT BEFORE OUR EYES SO THAT NOT EVEN A SCAR IS LEFT … WELL IF HE CLAIMS WE HAVE NO FAITH ,THEN ET HIM CURE INSTANTLY ANY ACCIDENT VICTIM WHO IS ALSO A CHRISTIAN… POINT BEING LET HIM CURE BLEEDING AND WOUNDS THAT CAN BE SEEN BY THE NAKED EYES NOT SOME INTERNAL ORGAN BULL SHIT
…. IAM FROM A.P. AND YES THIS CONVERSION WAVE IS SO VERY TRUE … WHAT THE AUTHOR HAS SAID IS DAMN REAL AND HINDUS NEED TO FIGHT …
This is a massive topic but I think the problem comes down to two fundamental factors. Money and reach. Very few Hindus have received Hindu teachings in a systematic didactic way. They pick up Hindu teachings almost by osmosis from family, friends, surrounding village etc.. The whole thing is very precarious. You can see the evidence. The moment a Hindu moves to U.S, Australia, Fiji etc. this osmosis process is disrupted and his Hindu-ness begins to erode and the children of that Hindu lose most touch with Hinduism and become Hindu by name only. This is why majority of Hindus in Fiji have converted to christianity. But one need not leave India to see this phenomenen. In the village itself many Hindus from the working class and poor have no outlets teaching them Hinduism and thus Hinduism’s hold on many Hindus is feeble to begin with. In other words many of these Hindus are not fully enfranchised in the Hindu tradition to begin with. In other words, many of the poor and working class Hindus who make up the majority of Hindus in India don’t have time and money to go to a bookstores and look for books explaining Hinduism. They are more concerned with whether this year’s monsoon will be good enough to enable them to school both their children instead of just one. He certainly does not have time and money to go to bookstores and systemically fill up his gaps in knowledge about Hinduism. Suddenly well funded christian missionaries come into his village bringing gifts such as fishing nets for fisherman, grinders, houses to converts etc.. And they bring with them bibles, knowlegable preachers, consise pamphlets and books and workshops all systematically laying out their christian theology ALL FREE OF CHARGE. Believe me if Hindus also sent out knowlegable preachers, pamphlets, books and workshops all systematically laying out their theology they would have 100 times the success of some beer drinking foreign missionary whose own children back in the west have multiple sexual partners before they turn 18. No one likes to leave the tradition of their land and ancestors. You need look no further than Iskcon, Shirdi Sai Baba, Swami Narayan etc.. Any Hindu who enters these organizations is impervious to conversion. However the greatest problem for these Hindu organizations is money. They don’t have even a fraction of the funds that these western christian organizations have. Generally speaking there aren’t many systematized teaching efforts or institutions to propagate Vedic Dharma. And make no mistake their is a nexus between intelligence agencies of the west and these christian groups. Any country that gives up its native civiliztion for chritianity will become a slave of the west. Just look at the Philippines. It is the ony christian country in Asia. Today more than 110 years after Americans first set foot in Philippines, prostituition is rampant. The prostitution houses were first set up to serve American soldiers. But long after the Americans left, the degenirate mind set that was introduced to the Philippino mind is still there. Today the philippino man views the philippino women as a sexual object. You can not go down any road in Philippino cities without coming across sex bars and lounges. But you won’t find many christian missionaries in the philippines since the country has been rendered impotent and its native culture has been exterminated and it will never rise like neighboring Malaysia. In other words the western intelligence/missionary objective of permanently weakening the nation has been achieved and thus no need to waste money sending missionaries to the Philippines. Look at South Korea. 40% of population has become Christian in last 50 years. The korean culture has eroded severely. Things like sex before marriage has exploded in south korea and people don’t even want to get married which has led to a plummeting birth rate with south korea having one of the lowest birth rates in the world threatning future prosperity as south korea ages and becomes elderly. And in christianized societies who takes care of the elderly? Nursing homes. In america, australia etc the youth view elderly as burden to be shed. This is opposite of our Vedic Sanatana Dharma. Koreans are now getting surgery to straighten their mongloid eyes to look more white. Who can blame them since they are told that there god is a white man with blue eyes name jesus who was absurdly born in palestine. Despite korea’s advanced industrial base they inexplicably buy billion’s of dollars in high-priced second rate export versions of american military equipment which is dependent on highly unreliable spare parts from america. The U.S is notorious for cutting of spare parts to countries that don’t follow her dictates thus rendering the military equpment useless. Recently when south korea was toying with idea of buying a super advanced Israeli radar the U.S immediately demanded an explaination and south korea immediately bowed to its American master and purchased the American radar. Look at what happened to Iran. In the 1970s Iran was touted as a regional super power because of its Army being armed with advanced U.S military hardware. But once the Iranians had an Islamic revolution that put Iran’s interests ahead of the wests the U.S cut off all spare parts to Iran and rendering the army impotent in a span of just a few months. India and China are no fools. They realize this which is why they do so many indigenous projects from submarines, to space rockets, to aircraft. We can complain about the quality of these products but at least they are not spending precious hard currency on importing slave-inducing American equipment. So it is puzzling that a country as industrially advanced as south korea has never developed a space booster like India or China and yet has billions of dollars to import worthless Americans equipment. The brains of this American military equipment refered to as source codes are held by the Americans. In essence this allows the Americans to control the south korean military like a puppet master controls a puppet. But all this makes sense in light of christians playing a prominet role in south korea today. Even the south korean president is a christian. South korea inexplicably sent its army to Iraq to help America. Iraq is of no strategic consequence to south koreans and yet korean sons and daughters were sent to Iraq to bleed and die defending AMERICICA’S interests not korea’s. But all of this makes perfect sense when you understand that the christian missionaries are less interested in spreading the teachings of jesus than in subverting the indigenous culture and independence of a society with the aid of western inelligence agencies. We all know that wherever christians have become a majority in India separitism has exploded and the locals have become wannabe westerners who feel no pride in anything of their own. Such a people will be subservient to their white masters and can never lead their native lands to greatness. The mission of these missionaries is colonialism OF THE MIND. You never have to take over the land of a people if you conquer their minds and this is what missionary christianity is. If orthodox christinaity like that you find in Russia was to come to India then the U.S would have a big problem becuse the the the russian othodox church teaches super loyalty to the Russian state and views itself as the defacto state religion of russia and views all other religions such as western christianity and catholic church as tresspassers and infiltrators to be opposed. If such of type of christianity existed in India you can bet the American government and military/intelligence missionary apparatus would vehemntly oppose it. My Bharatiya brothers. Try to understand the grand geo-strategic game that is being played. Do you think the west is so stupid to abandon direct colonialism without having planted the seeds of a plan B for maintaining their dominance in the world. Missionaries are one such major tool. Wake up and raise your children in our tradition and donate money to groups like Iskcon, Chinna Jeeyar organization, Himalayan Academy etc. that produce books and pamphelts and are trying to preserve our Sanatana Dharma. Also put your money where your mouth is and raise your children to raise their children in our tradition and to donate money. Life is short. Whatever money, wealth, resources we have is because Bhagawan has given it to us. Out of gratitude should we not give back to preserve the very traditions he gave us which is under severe attack by the forces of Kali Yugam and is at risk of disappearing. Do you want to look back on your short life and say I wish I had or I’m glad I did.
Sri Reddy garu, would you like to contribute to the cause in some way. Let us know on arisebharat@gmail.com
Sri Reddy,
Donate to some organisations which are doing good work not to some ‘pseudo-Hindu’ organisation which will kill fellow Indians in the name of a religion.
Divine incarnations can happen in any religion. Please read the book by Yogi Paramhansa Yogananda.
Get out of this geo-political mindset and conspiracy theories. In fact most of the countries you mention like US, UK etc. are now being controlled by Asians including Indians.
In America alone close to 3 millions Indians are there. Same with UK, where in some areas there are so many Indians that you might only see a white man with great difficulty.
Don’t fall prey to all this propaganda crap and narrow your mind. Today the population of Hindus is much higher than it was in 1900 or 1960. It is more than 1 billion worldwide I am told and not about to become extinct anytime soon.
my dear hindus dont convert to other religions……it is just like solding ur mother……
proud to be hindu
I don’t understand, why people of Andhra Pradesh are so willing to convert, I live in Bengal and even though was ruled by communists by so long I don’t know one person who converted out of Hinduism personally, maybe some poor people do once in a while but its really insignificant, most are religious Hindus, even communist party members are practicing Hindus. None of my relatives will dare to convert, our family will completely disown, our grandparents might even get an heart attack, and we are not brahmins, infact we are obc actually. I think most of India is like that except may be tribal areas and remote areas like north east. Even those tribals who live close to non-Tribals tend to be good Hindus. Why is AP so different?
Sujayji, AP is not different…It is a case study state for the Xtian missionaries. Most of N.Eastern states have become Xtian. A very high section in Tamilnadu is Xtian, owing to the fact that Xtian missionaries established large institutions there. In AP in the recent past when YS Rajasekhar Reddy was CM & with Sonia at Centre, there was huge amount of support to the missionaries who got a free hand. Due to a high amount of de-hinduisation by the communists, the situation was ripe for the missionaries. An organized attempt with govt support was the reason why the conversion happened. When you look at Bengal, the same thing is happening with the Muslim conversion rate due to infiltration. Why is the society there unable to stop the demographic change ? The net result is that demographically, the Hindus are getting weakened. Though on a large scale, the non-Hindu numbers seem to be only 20% nationwide, they are far more dominant, since they operate in pockets where they populate beyond 35%.
“Satyameva Jayathe ”
“Sarvapapa pariharom raktha prokshana mavasyam, thad raktham paramathmena punya dana baliyagam”++====
blood is neede to remove this worlds sin but not the blood of animals but God alone should come to this world and only His blood can do this.
think with your heart, understanding scriptures is knowing God
God bless you my Friend.
@ Satish..So now you have to rely on the good old Sanskrit to prove His existence….Can you kindly quote the reference from where you have lifted this quote ?
Thertiriya Aranyaka verse 3 says, “Sarvapapa pariharo raktha prokshna mavasyam” which means, that the redemption is through shedding of blood only. For this purpose God allowed mankind to sacrifice animals, in order to make them realize that there is a penalty for everyone’s sins. Though the animal’s blood is not a substitute, it was expected that man would repent and turn away from his sinful ways, by seeing the blood of the animal which is being shed on his behalf. But mankind started practicing it just as a ritual, and thus came into condemnation.
If mankind were to be saved from this predicament, as Thertiriya Aranyaka 3rd verse says again, “…thad raktham Paranatmena punyadena baliyagam” which means, that blood has to be through the sacrifice of God himself. The Purusha Sukta says, there is no other way other than the sacrifice of Purusha Prajapati. Purushao vava yagna (Chandokya Upanishad 3.16.1), God, the Purusha is the sacrifice. Sama Veda Dandiya Mahabhramanam says, “Prajapathi devapyam aathmanam yagnam kruthva prayachita” which means, God will offer himself as a sacrifice for the redemption of mankind. Sathpatha Bhramanam says, “Prajapathi yagnayaga”.
Is there any one who sacrificed himself for your sins in any avatar?
The Dead Sea Scrolls clearly depict that Jesus Christ never existed. How about trying to prove that Jesus did exist before you ask questions about the meaning of Vedic suktas. How about trying to clarify why the 4 gospels all have different stories about Jesus and there is no consensus.
Mis-propaganda to convert is an old-Christian method and you are continuing the same.
Readers are advised to go through the link below for the popular mis-propaganda the Christian missionaries are indulging in and the answers to their questions,
http://www.haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?PageID=11357
The Prajapati you mentions here is not the dead man Jesus. He is actually the father of Sati… Look for the video ” Mahadev ki Kahani”
I think that it is wrong to blame only dalits and telling them that only they are converting to christianity.
All the christians I have seen especially Nairs from Kerala are all Brahmins who converted to Christianity.
In Wikipedia (i dont know we can trust or not) but it is clearly mentioned that whent he Moghals started ruling India the first person to convert to Islam were Brahmins because they found the new religion to suit their apetitie for power and control.
I know there is caste system continuing in Indian christians so Brahmins also convert a lot.
Currently I think only people left defending Hinduism in India are the Kshathriyas . I dont know about OBC people but main politicians in BJP like Narendra Modi, Shivraj Singh Chauhan etc are all OBC. So my guess is that atleast OBC are not converting.
What i feel is that Hinduism will be more strong if weak people leave the religion. Opportunists will always be opportunists. Today Christianity , tommorow if suppose Islam again gains prominence then they will convert to Islam because their blood is like that.
So I say that if the Dalits and Brahmins are converting en mass then let them convert…….We should not get flustered.
If the Brahmins go away then atleast the Caste system based on Birth invented by Brahmins will also automatically die which is good for Hinduism.
Strong people but less people will mean better chance of defending Hinduism.
Har Har Mahadev.
Jai Shri Ram.
let the people free. Cmon everybody in andhra knows there are conversions but let’s not get overboard on this people. Its a very small percentage really. Millions and millions and millions are still hindus. So whats there to fear. We must not become emotional on this. Let nobody bring some more division among the people of andhra. Hindus are going to be majority for hundreds of years so why fear. We must not bother about conversions. Christians are our brothers. They are not our enemies. Hinduism teaches this. So do not corrupt Hinduism and make Hindus hate Christianity and christians. Do not change Hinduism into a hate others religion or a violent religion. True Hinduism promotes peace and harmony
It is the christians who hate us brother! Who is the one that calls the other demon worshippers? Who is the one that asks converts to stomp on and smash portraits of the other to test the sincerity of their conversion. There is a war being waged. At the present rate Andhra will become a neutral state like Taiwan or South Korea where a Taoist father has a catholic wife, buddhist son, protestant daughter and atheist grandson. If that happens India will not be India and will just be a place on the map. Women will where tight mini-skirts and dye their hair and men will think drinking and smoking are “cool” and how many sex partners you have had will be a status symbol instead of seva and religosity. Please visit Taiwan or South Korea, Philippines or Nigeria. All these countries are victims of conversion. Then visit neighboring North Korea, Malaysia and Niger and you will see what existed before the western inetelligence missionary apparatus set foot in these societies. In Amrican schools Anal sex, masturbation, and oral sex are taught to 12 year olds and condoms are given in school. Try to understand brother that the teachings of Jesus heve no relationship to modern-day christian societies like America and the missionaries they send to countries like India. We will become a pornographic society with in 100 years. Please visit any of the countries and see if any conversions have uplifted the country as a whole and just one or two clinics or fishing boats.
brother reddy. india is still a hindu nation.. u term the rest of the world as nymphomaniacs and hippies. India is the 2nd largest AIDS affected nation. is this because of the culture? or ill education?
It is the duty of a person who knows the right path to guide his brother along it and not allow him to be misled. If your faith is strong you will not convert.As great as the indian gods are they will not allow the adulteration of their beloved believers. so relax , if you feel something is to be done then fight fire with fire. propogate of the faith you support as aggressively as the christians do.
i am not against the christians. their missionary expeditions have saved millions over the world irrelevant of their purpose they have educated thousands of people. the very language you use to debate on this platform is their bringing. kindly refrain from violence and show them what you want to prove in similar terms.
Interview of a Christian Evangelist in India
By: Bandyopadhyay Arindam
The world today could have been a much better place for all of us, had we all refrained from trying to prove the superiority of our own religion………..
This is an interview of “Father Johnson’ after his award by the Government of India for his exemplary work in India in enlightening the people in the path of the ONLY God. Father Johnson returned to the USA after 10 years of service, to uplift the people of India in the name of God. The interview was taken in July 2005 by a journalist in Houston, USA……
Welcome home Father. You have been in India for 10 years, where “our mission’ is still going on. Tell me Father, how is India?
India is a fascinating country, a land of contrasts. Modern India is the largest democracy, the budding economic superpower, with the second-largest pool of scientists and engineers in the world. India is also the only surviving ancient civilization with over one sixth of the world population. At one time, not so long ago, when Europe was in the “dark ages’ and America was not even “discovered’, India was a far advanced and developed country with a contribution of over 25% of world GDP till the 17th century and far advanced in all aspects of life, be it knowledge, philosophy, science, mathematics, arts, astronomy or navigation.
Ella Wheeler Wilcox, (1850-1919), American poet and journalist, wrote “India – The land of Vedas, the remarkable works contain not only religious ideas for a perfect life, but also facts which science has proved true. Electricity, radium, electronics, airship, all were known to the seers who founded the Vedas.”
Dick Teresi, American author of “Lost Discoveries’ mentioned “Some one thousand years before Aristotle, the Vedic people asserted that the earth was round and circled the sun….Two thousand years before Pythagoras, philosophers in northern India had understood that gravitation held the solar system together, and that therefore the sun, the most massive object, had to be at its center….Twenty-four centuries before Isaac Newton, the Hindu Rig-Veda asserted that gravitation held the universe together….. The Sanskrit speaking people subscribed to the idea of a spherical earth in an era when the Greeks believed in a flat one…..The Indians of the fifth century A.D. calculated the age of the earth as 4.3 billion years; scientists in 19th century England were convinced it was 100 million years…”
Despite all its riches, history says that India never invaded any country. On the contrary, India has been repeatedly assaulted and conquered by numerous invaders and has been ruled by “foreigners’, first the Muslims and then the British for over a thousand years. India, before the advent of the British rulers, was a rich and prosperous country.
Rev. Jabez T. Sunderland (1842-1936), Unitarian minister and reformer, wrote that “…when the British first appeared on the scene, India was one of the richest countries of the world; indeed, it was her great riches that attracted the British to her shores. For 2,500 years before the British came on the scene and robbed her of her freedom, India was self-ruling and one of the most influential and illustrious nations of the world ….. This wealth was created by the Hindus’ vast and varied industries.”
What about Hinduism as a religion?
Hinduism has a deep philosophical and spiritual heritage that has repeatedly mesmerized the world including western scientists, leaders and philosophers. Despite propaganda to the contrary, Hindus, like us, believes in one Supreme God but they do so in many forms, that helps to develop personalized relations. Hinduism is the oldest major religion in the earth with 900 million followers. Unlike monotheistic institutionalized, religions like Judaism, Islam or Christianity, it is not based on any single prophet or scripture, but allows its followers all the freedom to pursue God and Truth in their own way, while living harmoniously with all creation.
We know that the Hindus are tolerant of other religions. Recently, UNESCO pointed out that out of 128 countries where Jews lived before Israel was created, only one, India, did not persecute them and allowed them to prosper and practice Judaism in peace. Similarly the Zoroastrians, when driven out of Persia by Islam were given shelter by the Hindus in India and still coexist in India peacefully. Very recently, the Dalai Lama, driven from Buddhist Tibet, has been accepted with open arms. Such is the ethos of Hinduism and India.
I have heard that Mark Twain once said that “In religion all other countries are paupers; India is the only millionaire’. I have also read Arnold Toynbee’s writing “…at the religious level, India has not been a recipient; she has been a giver. About half the total number of the living, higher religions are of Indian origin’. What do you think about it?
We know India gave birth to religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, and Jainism. Hinduism, though the predominant religion, has, to quote Aldous Huxley, “never been a persecuting faith, have preached almost no holy wars and have refrained from that proselytizing religious imperialism which has gone hand in hand with political and economic oppression of colored people.’
What many do not know and I will not elaborate further for obvious reasons, is that there are researchers who think that the teachings of Jesus Christ have something to do with the ancient wisdom of Vedas. The Hindu concepts of “karma’, and “reincarnation’, which are part of the New Age Movement that we see today, were not unknown to Jesus.
Then Father, why do we need to convert people in India?
You see, we in the western world, have the “white man’s burden’ of civilizing the rest of the world. We also have the need and desire to spread the message of Christ, since we believe that it is the ONLY way to salvation and all other nonbelievers will go to hell. The faith in Christianity is being eroded in Europe and America. That is why our Pope on his visit to India said, “Just as in the first millennium, the Cross was planted on the soil of Europe, and in the second on that of the Americas and Africa, we can pray that in the third Christian millennium a great harvest of faith will be reaped in this vast and vital continent.’
Why do you target India?
India is the right country because Hindu Indians are generally peace-loving tolerant, law abiding people who are truthful and virtuous. India”s devotion to being good rather than being clever comes nearer the heart of a true civilization, said W. J. Grant, in his book,
“The spirit of India’. The unsuspecting Indians have always welcomed everybody on their shore and still keep on doing so. You cannot say the same about a Muslim country or of communist China. You see Hindus are such naive – they go out of their way to say that “all religions are same – they all lead to God’. Christians and for that matter, no other religion, says that.
Where does your resource come from?
There are five major aid-giving countries, viz., USA, Germany, Britain, Italy and the Netherlands. According to the available data, in the last decade alone, foreign aid organizations received more than 2.5 billion dollars. This is only official statistics. According to the record and report of the Ministry of Home Affairs, Government of India, the statistics about the foreign aid being received by Indian Non Government Organizations shows that 80% of it is meant only for the Christian organizations that have been buying their ways into the Indian society and converting unsuspecting people under the guise of social service.
How powerful is Christianity in India?
Oh, though we are only 2.4% of the population officially, we have a large control over the country because of our economic invasion. You see, the present leader of the main political party-The Congress Party of India is a Roman Catholic with close contact with the Vatican. There are Christian Chief ministers in 5 out of 29 states. Because of the British rule of India, we have a large section of the leaders of India who look up to us. Believe me, we are the second largest land owners in India. We own and control 80% of the Indian media like NDTV 24*7, CNN-IBN ,AAJ TAK, THE TEHELKA etc and newspapers .The best example is how these media made a huge hue and cry over the Gujarat riots.Riots have happened everywhere in India.But in case of Gujarat riots, the reports were deliberately inflated,stories were built up and a systematic,planned malicious and slanderous campaign was launched against the NDA government.
Inspite of the fact that India took giant leaps in progress in every field and there was a surge in National pride and self confidence for every Indian during their tenure,India’s Most Popular Government led by India’s Finest Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee was made to suffer shock defeat. We overtly or covertly have alliance with key political associations. So it is very easy for us to influence the right people.
You must have a very organized system?
Yes, we do. Have you heard about the Joshua Project? It identifies and highlights the people groups of the world that have the least exposure to the Gospel and the least Christian presence and shares this information to encourage pioneer church-planting movements among every ethnic group. The Joshua Project has identified the North India Hindi belt as “the core of the core of the core” because of its population density (40% of the Indian population- the states of Bihar, Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan and Uttar Pradesh lies in this region); it is the religious hub of India; and it has the smallest Christian presence in India. Thus detailed plans have been drawn up to target India’s 75,000 Pin Codes.
The Seventh Day Adventists owes its Indian success to Canadian evangelist Ron Watts, President for the South Asian Division. When he entered India, in 1997, the Adventist Church had 225,000 members after 103 years of operations. In five years, he took it to 700,000.
Some methods used include the 10-Village and the 25-Village Programs, which involve five sets of laymen, under guidance from a regular pastor, who identify 10 or 25 villages in close proximity. Once the villages were selected, the teams would approach the leaders of each village and invite them to send two leaders to a 10-day seminar at a nearby resort, at the organization’s expense. It is before no time that the local leaders will then start working for our faith and organization. In 1998, there were seventeen 10-Village Programs and 9,337 were baptized. In 1999, forty programs were held and nearly 40,000 people baptized.
Under the Christian Andhra Pradesh Chief Minister Y. Samuel Rajashekar Reddy, the Adventists shifted to a 50-village plan. They began baptizing at the rate of 10,000 persons per month and have increased it to 5,000 persons per day all over India.
The US-based Maranatha Volunteers International provides buildings for the Seventh-day Adventist Church. They are committed to build 750 churches in 2 years in India. The Oregon based, Fjarli family have a goal to build 1000 churches at a rate of 1 per day.
How do you carry out conversion attempts?
You see the local people are so simple and naïve that they do not have any clue as what out motive or means are. We target mostly the poor, illiterate, tribal people because they are the easiest to convert. We do that by various means – we establish schools, hospitals that overtly or subtly promote our faith, we allure them with money or goods to the needy when they convert, we “stage’ miracle cures, we use our influence on the media, we use our experts in propaganda, we promote the influential people and so on. We use the money sent to us by unsuspecting religious and faithful Christians from all over the world. We have numerous NGO and AID organizations to funnel the money into the country. There are a great number of missionaries of various denominations who are working there, all literally competing for the most number of converts. The Southern Baptists alone are a group that has nearly 100,000 career missionaries in North India, all working to spread our “good word.”
We convince the “natives’ by our appearances and even use their own culture. A native converted person will continue to use his Hindu name so as not to alienate himself. Some of the numerous Catholic priests in Southern India dress like “sannyasis’ (monks), and call their organizations “ashramas’ (hermitage). This is to make Christianity more similar to the Vedic traditions. Bharat Natyam, the classical dance of India, is also taught in the Christian schools, but with Christian symbols and meanings replacing the Vedic. This is all in the attempt to actively sway Hindus over to Christianity. The Evangelical Church of India (ECI), established in 1954, targets the slums, scheduled castes and scheduled tribes, in cities and villages. Its logo depicts a cross struck deep in a lotus, the seat of Hindu divinity.
Is the so called caste system in India an advantage?
The “Caste-ism in India’ is a boon to us. Though Varna or caste was once an essential part of the culture, based on occupation and vocational skills, which kept the civilization going for over 5000 years, caste-ism is a degenerated socio-political system now that has been declared illegal. However it is one big weapon against Hinduism. We have learnt from the colonial British that it is very easy to divide the population on the basis of caste and religion based politics and we use it to our own interest to the maximum. We join the anti-Hindu forces and help to keep the stigma of caste-ism alive for our own benefit. We target the “untouchables’ (the unprivileged people, that has so marvelously crafted to be a result of the Hindu religion and not the social system) and convert them in the lure of “liberating’ them. However I must confess that we maintain their “untouchability’ by not allowing them to mix with the general Christians, maintaining separate entry to churches and even giving them separate churches and cemeteries.
We also use opportunities that God gives us. During natural disasters like floods, earthquakes and the recent Tsunami, taking advantage of the need, we were able to convert successfully entire low caste villages in Tamil Nadu to Christianity with the lure of money and aid.
How successful are you in your conversion attempts.
Oh we are doing a good job. The Northeast Indian states like Assam, Nagaland, and Manipur, have witnessed a surge of nearly 200% in their Christian population in the past 25 years. Their grasp is so strong now that practicing Hinduism is forbidden in some areas. Hindus can no longer do worship or “puja’ in the open because of our influence.
In another northeast state, Tripura, where there were no Christians at the time of India’s independence, 55 years ago, there are now over 120,000 today. The figures are even more striking in Arunachal Pradesh, where there were only 1710 Christians in 1961, but over 1 million today, along with over 780 churches. In the southern state of Andhra Pradesh, churches are coming-up every day in far flung villages and there is an attempt to set-up one near Tirupati, the world famous Hindu temple. Many of the North-East separatist movements, such as the Mizo or the Bodos, are not only Christian dominated, but also sometimes function with the covert backing of the missionaries. Christian Nagaland terrorists have been killing non-Christians for decades on end. More than 20,000 people have lost their lives to insurgency in Assam and Manipur in the past two decades. We understand that there are some social problems that crept up – the northeast states are the highest in India in terms of drugs and AIDS related problem – but we accept that as “casualties of war” –that should not deter us from our goal.
Do you face any resistance?
Of course we do. But we brand any resistance as “Hindu fundamentalism or militancy” and the media and our favorite leaders take care of the rest. We have set the mind of the unsuspecting population in a way, that whenever any of our people are harassed, attacked or killed, from any reason including their own faults, the blame automatically goes to these so called “Hindu fundamentalist and Communal Elements” and even though almost all of these instances are later proved to have nothing to do with these Hindu groups, the initial hue and cry that is raised makes sure the memories persist in the mind of the populace and the sympathy stays with us. There are instances when nuns have been proved to be raped by Christians, but the blames continues to stay with the Hindus.
Is there any legal barrier?
Yes there are some rules and laws that sometimes impair our activities. The Indian Supreme Court had declared that: “The right to propagate religion does not mean the right to convert… Conversion done under allurement, use of force and fraud in which the poverty or ignorance of the individual is taken advantage of, is not only undemocratic but also unconstitutional…Respect for all religions is the foundation of secularism whereas the seeds of conversion lie in religious intolerance.”. Anti conversion laws have been passed in various states. But as I said, we have our ways.
Sometimes the law does get us though. We had some instances where members of our faith have been convicted with resultant imprisonment or expulsion. As in churches all over the world, some clergymen have been penalized for cases of sexual exploitation, including pedophilia. But that does not deter us from our goal and our almighty Lord takes care of our soul.
How satisfied are you with the progress of the missions?
It is really satisfying. We find enormous pleasure in converting the Hindu “pagans’. However I wish we could do more. I wish I could say like St Francis Xavier, during the Goa Inquisition in 1560, “When I have finished baptizing the people, I order them to destroy the huts in which they keep their idols; and I have them break the statues of their idols into tiny pieces, since they are now Christians. I could never come to an end describing to you the great consolation which fills my soul when I see idols being destroyed by the hands of those who had been idolaters.”
Thank you, Father for your time and honesty.
Thank you, my son. God bless you.
Epilogue
“Christianity offers nothing that is not already available somewhere in the many forms of Hinduism. Hinduism never rejected the teachings of Jesus. Those who have converted either agreed with a gun pressed at their skulls as in Goa, or because it provided an escape from caste tyranny, as well as a guaranteed professional advancement. Through its Vedic legacy, Hinduism respects all faiths. It clearly states that God is one, but has many forms”.
(Paul William Roberts, author of, “Empire of the Soul: Some journeys in India’)
Very interesting material Siva garu
I have researched this on the net.
http://blogs.ivarta.com/Interview-an-Evangelist-India/blog-31.htm
The article clearly says it is a hypothetical interview of “Father Johnson”…. (as I clearly suspected)
It means that this interview is the product of the author’s ripe imagination.
Please do not peddle lies and half-truths from the internet to create hatred between Hindus and other communities, between Indians and Indians. Mr. Siva, if you cannot be a true Hindu, then at least do not join these ‘pseudo-Hindu’ organisations and do the Goebbels like game of false alarming propaganda to get recruits and donations.
As expected Mr. Arisebharat, who otherwise keeps insisting on rigourous and honest research has immediately endorsed this material, calling it ‘interesting’. Shows his leanings…!!
Anybody with a little knowledge of the internet would know this. The writer is a well known columnist and sattirist and the article is very popular on the internet because people empathise with it since they have faced it. It is a pity that you needed to “research” it to get there.
We did find the article interesting and have commented as such. Our leanings are with Bharat and we have no qualms about it. We have never indulged in hate mongering and jumping to conclusions.
On the other hand, it is you who have been using terms like hypocrite and making sattirical comments which is unmaking of a person who wants to prove that he has neutral leanings.
It is the English media which indulges in half truths and we are only putting forth the other side of the picture through our writings and postings.
Mr. Arise bharat,
Well if your learnings are truly with Bharat, you would clearly articulate that every person born in Bharat has equal and inalienable rights and freedoms. You would not try to divide a wedge between people following some religions vis-a-vis others saying that some are India’s ‘own’ religions and that other ‘religions’ are not India’s own (despite the fact that all major religions in India have been around for more time in India than many of the countries in the world have been in existence….!!)
So according to me, true Bharat is the idea of confluence. The ‘us’ and ‘them’ is the philosophy of Islam or even christianity.
Religion, must be considered a purely personal matter and we (in the guise of nationalism) cannot go the way of Islam and start differentiating between Bharatwasis on the basis of this. Personally, I believe this.
Regarding the article (imaginary interview of Fr. Thomas), Mr. Siva has cleverly ‘forgotten’ to mention that this interview is not a real interview. It certainly gives the impression of a real interview.
Very typical of those who spread lies and semi-lies to bring more people into their ‘pseudo-Hindu’ agenda of divisiveness.
what so long this is going on,i can garuntee that what all the religions making conversions and increasing its population will come to end one day and get submerge in hinduism,people in india chritian missionaries making people conversions,but see the outside world in us uk other christian countries, they r following hindu principles,they read bhagawath geeta,they realize what is life and saying sorry to past life , they read garud puran,and understand what all sins we r doing,and we have done ,for that we seek punishment for how much dear we might be dear to god,doing sin asking forgiveness to father will not wash our sins, and punishments will certainly will be there by mental tensions ,or false tracking.if u need to achieve god one must be pure with mind ,doing and guiding good things to others ,it should be believed that if u r not in the correct track ,it is to be understood that u r not just on the wrong track ,instead u r on to the worst track that will make ur life hell.if iam pure christian in past life i will be try to attain pure hindu that will be ultimate goal, adapting christianity and other religions might be easy but following the principle of hinduism r difficult thats y they get on to wrong track from the main land,challenge urself that i will follow complete hindu principles, people donot know if they eat nonveg, one day they will become nonveg.there is lot more to say i can say just read bhagawat geeta and garuda puran and ramayana, that will make ur life complete, otherwise again u need to take rebirth and face all mental dificulties.so follow the true religion and get free from problem all other attachments like lust,greediness,anger.i will try to have only once sex in my life time for having children only one or 2,can u challenge urself to follow this principle, i bet u can’t ,if u follow this u will be human kind or else u will never be.try to follow idealism.
Namaskar,
We have to elect pro hindu political parties,As long as we elect this unprincipled Congress we should live and die like this.
Manoj Marada,
Dubai,
Hindus awake, defy missionaries.. otherwise no life for us. Missionaries are getting money from foreign and converting people from almost all the castes to Christianity. Defy missionaries and your friends who try to impress you about Christianity. Don’t join your children to christian schools and colleges. Because they will force you to sing christian songs and read bible and soon they will convert to Christianity or at-least they will make them pseudo secular. Coastal Andra’s christian population has crossed 25% of total population. But on the records it’s below 2%. Missionaries are doing whatever possible to convert the Hindus to their fold. The convertees become enemies of the Hinduism once they convert and even they are trying to convert others in to their fold. Let us start movement to revive Hinduism and educate people about the missionaries false propaganda about Hinduism.from every person.
Join the group ‘Fight against conversion’ in Orkut
What is Religion??? Does GOD has his own religion?
GOD belongs to only particular religion people and reject all other humans?
All religions in world say that God belongs to them and christians are no different and convert ignorant people.
Being a hindu i am free to go church or dargah and pray where ever I like, its no crime but for other religions it is crime.
Hinduism is not a religion but way of life and a collection of all ancient religions.
Christians say to love jesus you have to convert that itself is a mark of disrespect for religion, jesus and god.
You are such an Idiot.People like you wont accept their ‘MOTHER’ as their ‘MOTHER’.Being a HINDU,it is really shameful.You were born to Hindu parents and in a Hindu country,COUNTRY BRUT
Namaste,
We have to adopt some of their formule of success.
Eg. The missionary type of work, sunday prayers, healing prayers etc.
Every day I pray at 12 noon, turning towards kashi, for the freedom of visweswara temple and all other temples that were captured.
If someone likes to join, they may.
I dream, saamoohika trikal sandhyas for unity of natives.
By the bye, do u kno one Samavedam Elisha, a brahmin convertee ?(converted when elephantasis of his mother was cured by prayers)
I agree with this article. I belong to Khammam. Walkable distance from Badrachalam. It is holi place for hindus but not like Tirupati.
We moved out of the country as I have been working in abroad for last 25 years. I married and have kids, brought my parents here almost 15 years back. I almost lost in touch with my relatives. Recently we visited India, I arranged a family gathering & came to know 90% of villagers got converted in Christianity (inlcuding some of our relatives). I am not too religious, but I respect my religion. I was in Christian country for so long being a Hindu and my own country people getting converted to Christinity. Accepting Christinity is not a Crime but I don’t agree with the ‘conversion process’.
Sammaiah garu, were you able to investigate as to why your relatives converted. Are there anyone among them who are willing to return back to our Dharma. If so, let us know we can help. mail at arisebharat@gmail.com
please check:
http://www.asitis.com/12/1.html
Also: http://www.crusadewatch.com
and http://www.jihadwatch.com
to understand the
“ANY WAY” “SANDWICH” PHENOMENON in PROGRESS
reinforced by the forces of science and technology.
Using the “WING DING” FONT if you type \
You will see AUM
Guys….. for Once…. stop that Xtian-Muslim conversion…. if they wanna convert…. let them…. why don’t we try reconverting them back ?? After all, it is securalism, one can’t force someone, so if they are doing that (according to the law) legally, then their’s no problem…. we better start doin the same thing…. Ask yourself… how many people do we know have converted to hinduism ?? But them… they can give numbers… BIG numbers… Its just because they are trying and we are not.
Kenya is Christan state, Kenyan were made, Christan not to help them but to loot them and supply that loot to the west, which most of the Kenyan are doing that now, looting their own people and depositing that loot in the west. this is what people of Andhar Prades should be told. And this is repiting in all Christan country in the thrid world.
NaranH
London, UK
I fully agree with Pradeep. One needs constructive actions from influential Hindus and not just words. People convert for two reasons: One they are pushed out by the religion they profess or are attracted to the ideas offered by their newly adopted religion.
It is a crime to discriminate against anyone in India, especially lower castes. Why is this law not being enforced against upper class Hindus in Indian villages? It is this discrimination that is pushing Hindu Dalits to adopt other religions. Also, many un-educated people do not understand the complexities of Hindu relgion. Maybe it is easy for them to understand the simple concepts of Islam and Christianity. Hindu leaders need to work on these two fronts instead of wasting their time on fighting elections. We need people like Swami Dayanad Saraswati and Gandhi to bring about this change.
I accept this with out any doubt but the thing i always think how many days can you stop this conversions?
1.you can stop these conversions only when you abolish caste sytem
2.our religion heads should go in to the villages and teach the people what sanaatana dharma is
3.Rich people in our society must help the poor for their upliftment
i like this conversion
i would like to know what you thinks
then go to a Muslim or christian country and stay for some time as if you are not belongs to their religion. then say these words. Go to pakisthan and have an experience.
Well Laxminarayana,
To begin with, Islam or Christianity have been there in India for hundreds of years now and millions of people who have Indian genes follow these religions. So it is as much an Indian religion.
In fact it is fanatics like you who should remain outside India and then India would be a much better place for everyone.
The names of FANATICS GROUPS WHO SHOULD LEAVE India ::
1) Fanatics of VHP/Bajrang Dal etc. who believe that their version of ‘pseudo’ Hinduism is correct and don’t think twice about using violence. I have no problems with their belief systems (anyone is free to believe anything as long as violence is not employed). Those elements of RSS who believe in using violence to enforce their beliefs should also be asked to leave India.
2) Fanatics of Shiv Sena or MNS who believe that some cities are only meant for people from particular regions to live. For instance their belief that Mumbai is meant for Marathis only. These groups have screwed Mumbai and causing hatred between Indians and Indians.
3) Islamic groups who believe that Islamic rule should be enforced in India or parts of India and are willing to use violence should be removed from India. Similarly militant groups/mobs who evict Kashmiri pandits should be fought against and their terror removed from the country.
4) Separatist/christian-backed groups in the North east (who are willing to use violence) should be removed from India without fail.
5) Maoists are free to air their beliefs of socialist paradise and participate in elections, but those groups who indulge in kidnappings, killings or violence must be exterminated from India.
6) While any religious groups (including Hindu groups/missionaries/muslims) are free to preach their beliefs using peaceful means and find recruits, any group which uses violence should be banished from the country.
[Here I must mention that mere criticism of other religion should not be a cause for concern. I have travelled in liberal world where many people criticise religions, but no one bothers much about that. For instance I have travelled to Christian countries where they often denigrate and criticise Christ/Mary, but people do understand it in a liberal sense and don’t get too emotional about it. If some group is saying something about Hindu gods, then criticism should be replied through intellectual means of writing a counter article not by taking short-cuts of violence. Even though Gandhi was against conversion he always used the pen to counter criticism about his methods, never advocated violence to suppress a thought or idea.
Moreover, tolerance of diverse ideas (including critical thoughts) is a feature of the ancient great India. Much before liberal thinking came to the west, India has a great tradition of liberalism and criticisms should be always welcomed even if they come from Muslims or Christian groups and these criticisms should be replied to. However if the facts are distorted and false hood is spread, then we have to use the existing law of the land to fine these groups heavily. Even in developed countries spreading false news is a punishable offence. In fact, we should improve governance to settle these cases fast (our judiciary is notoriously slow). In fact, in such cases I feel we should give large fines (for example a fine of Rs. 10 lacs on spreading false news/rumours/lies). This fine can be used to fund development and uplift those from poorer sections of society.]
IF ALL THESE FANATICAL/SEMI-FANATICAL GROUPS LEAVE INDIA, INDIA WILL BE A MUCH BETTER COUNTRY TO LIVE IN.
I am from Andhra. I don’t see anything as mentioned here. We Telugu people live in harmony. Don’t believe this article. The author must be a Hindutva fanatic.
the author has given so much of data to prove that Xtian conversion in A.P. is on the rise. Just by saying that u are not able to see it, does not prove anything. Can u refute the happenings ? Can u refute the fact that there was a proposal to reduce the status of 7 hills of Tirupati temple to 2 hills…that conversion is so rampant in many of the temple towns that a movement had to be launched to force the government to issue a GO to stop conversions. Can u refute the point that political parties like the congress, TDP and PRP have announced that they would issue reservations to Christians who were erstwhile SC’s. these unconstitutional activities are what has forced a learned scholar like Samavedam Shanmukha Sharma to write the article. and if staying in Andhra is the only criteria that u have ,the person who wrote the article and the comments are from people who stay in Andhra.
What God is doing no man no matter how much one would wail can stop! When Christ returns, and it is impending, those that hate God would even cry to the rocks and the mountains to hide them.
Jesus Christ said: I will build my church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. He also said, the Gospel will be preached to the ends of the earth and then the end will come. He is coming to judge both the living and the dead. They that believe in the True God and His Son shall have eternal life and they that do not believe, shall be separated from God for ever.
This statement of Ajay is a perfect example of Christianity’s dogma and inability to face truth or logic. They failed to appeal to Hindus in the name of their puerile religion and then started resorting to lies, fraud and political power to gain converts. So much for your “truth” and “good news”.
Dear skandaveera,
I’m glad that someone responded, I looked at the dates and they are quite way back, so I thought that no one might respond to comments. Nice surprise and thank you for your post.
You know something, the first time Christ came, He came as a baby, completely vulnerable. He came full of grace and compassion towards the people. He healed people, opened the eyes of the blind, gave legs to the lame and paralysed, made lepers clean and embraced them, he gave speech to the mute, healed the deaf, he fed the hungry when people were following Him for days and they weren’t without food and ultimately He demonstrated the greatest power in that He even gave life to the dead!! This is unprecedented and unmatched. Christ has the power to give life to the dead because He has power over life and power over death. This means He is the source of life, the One from whom life comes. Hence He has the power to make the broken, the sick, the diseased, the hungry and the starved whole.
Over and above and beyond all that, Christ paid for the very reason, the very reason why everything that’s born on earth has to die. He paid for the “sin” (papam) of one and every man and woman once and for all, by offering Himself as the ultimate sacrifice on the cross.
This is the Gospel – the Good News – for the whole world, for every people of every tribe, language, nation, no matter where they are. It is the Good News of salvation.
This same Jesus, came into our lives, in Andhra Pradesh. He came into the lives of our family even in Jammu and Kashmir. He healed members of our family, of limbs that were twisted were restored, of my father when he was admitted to NIMS, Christ healed him! Jesus Christ did several other miracles in our family lives. That was what He did two thousand years ago, that is what He’s doing even right now. We know many members in our church who were once worshipping all kinds of “gods”, and had sicknesses of different kinds. The doctors couldn’t help, the gods couldn’t help but when they called upon Jesus, He healed them. Hence they recognised Christ as the True and Living One, gave their lives to Him and started to come to our church. The evidence is there for all to see.
“You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. I will be found by you,” says the Living God.
Well yes, he went to Europe and exterminated all the tolerant pagans there. Then he went to the Americas and had a hundred million natives exterminated there. Then he got inquisitions done where hundreds of thousands of innocents were murdered – and continue to be harassed in the name of your artifice of aggression. And folks like you propagate lies like this.
skandaveera,
Who are you angry with man? Who are you struggling with? You’ve got some problem somewhere in your heart/head.
You are talking some cryptic language in what you are saying. What do you mean by “he went to Europe and exterminated all the tolerant pagans there”? Looks like you do not even know the meaning of what “pagan” means in the first place.
Let’s not have this conversation. You better brush up on the history of Europe or other places that you are referring to before I want to talk to you.
Ajay, you are the one who started with the regular christian propaganda, and I merely said that whatever you call as good news has been a total destruction for mankind wherever it went, first Europe then Americas and now the East. History of Europe and the violent and aggressive advent of christism in Europe is well known – equally well known is what it did to the scores of tolerant and pluralistic traditions. They were pagans. Same with Americas. Same with India – for all the lies as Apostle Thomas in India, fact remains that it is a 16th century Portugese invasion that resulted in killing Hindus and demolishing the Kapaleeswara temple on whose debris stands your cathedral today. Fact also remains that Goa is today what it is, only as a result of the Portugese inquisition, torture and murder of several thousand innocent Hindus. In AP it happens to be flourishing under frauds like Jagan Reddy. You tried preaching good news without invitation, and when you bluff is called out, you say “lets not have the conversation” as if I am the one asking for a conversation. Now I have a piece of advise for you – you can either be loyal to truth or christianity, but not both – they contradict each other.
skandaveera,
From what you write in response to me, I believe I can draw a couple of conclusions about your knowledge on the subject matter under discussion namely:
1. You have not done even a basic “Wikipedia” kind of research on the history of Europe in the first century AD, nor even studied the New Testament to know the history of how the Gospel spread from Jerusalem after the Resurrection and Ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ.
2. You are equating the atrocities such as Spanish Inquisitions or those committed by political powers such as the Portuguese Colonialists with that of biblical Christians. This also shows your lack of understanding of at least the basic tenets and doctrines of the Holy Bible.
Before you can proceed on a full debate about Christianity, you need to understand what Christianity is about and also quite clearly understand what your own belief system is. You have to define your position in a coordinate system, like a framework. Then I know where you stand, you know my point of view and then we can attempt at having a fruitful conversation. You can enlighten me my misunderstandings and I can help you clear the air about your misunderstandings of things we discuss.
I do not want to have a political discussion about what is happening in AP nor rant about some political problems in the state.
Christ Himself clearly declared that His Kingdom is not of this world.
Layman depends on Wiki, which is just an online version of the Christianised Britannica. The Indian Christian editors of Wikipedia have carefully preserved the propaganda and refused to make any corrections to the debunked myths. They are perhaps just propagandists like you who have no loyalty to truth.
Spanish and Portugese, as much as the Nazis are very much “Biblical Christians”, who colluded with Church to organize the mass murder.
If you remove imperialism, politics and fraudulent conversions, there is no remainder in Christianity. So first rid your own system of those things before coming to people for debates. First go learn the truth of christianity yourself, find out why the pagans are virtually extinct in Europe and why native cultures are extinct in Americas. Find out why Goa is all christian today. Find out what the missionaries are doing all over the Asia in the name of God. Find out what the US is doing to non-christian societies in the name of God. Stop your missionaries from defrauding people. Then set out to teach others.
skandaveera,
You do not have basic knowledge of the history of Europe.
Yes, because I have undone the propaganda of “basic knowledge” you and your colonial masters teach, which you refuse to come out of.
Hi skandaveera.
First and foremost. You are equating western countries’ political power with Christianity. This is a very common misconception and mistake done by most Indians and also Pakistanis as well as Islamic Jihadis. This is fundamentally wrong and this is due to lack of knowledge. But for some people their lack of knowledge is their comfort zone.
Here I’d like to take this opportunity to educate you.
1. In many people’s (Indian Hindu fanatics’ and common people’s and Islamic Jihadis’) minds, UK/Britain is a “Christian” country. But right now in its history, UK is going through a phase what is called “post-Christian”/”post-modern” period.
2. The founding fathers of USA wanted to create a “Nation under God” originally in the 18th century and they had very Christian presidents like Washington and Abraham Lincoln, but it is not a Christian country per se right now.
3. Time and again ignorant people equate western imperialism with “Christianity”. But this is totally against the grain of Christianity. Because the following are Christ’s words in response to Pontius Pilate, the Governor of Judea under the Roman emperor Caesar Tiberius:
“My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.” [Rf. HB]
So clearly Christ’s kingdom and power is not behind nor is it demonstrated in the power of the earthly imperial powers.
4. But if you talk about imperialism and colonisation there were Indian empires which can be categorised along with Britain and USA for that matter. But that is not the point of this discussion.
(((5. For all your talk about imperialism, now I will show you, how India is actually being blessed through America. Indian companies like Infosys, TCS, HCL, Wipro, Capgemini, they are all growing through contracts from American companies. In the financial year 2011-2012, Indian expatriates from USA and other countries including UK and Canada have remitted $60 billion to India. So the quality of life of families and friends residing in India is massively improving because of Indians residing and working in the USA. and sending their earnings and savings back to India. The computer and the internet is a western invention and because of the knowledge of English language, Indians are able to create businesses, providing services to western companies and so making money and profits in turn benefiting the locals
Not only that Indians aspire for education in USA, UK, Canada and Australia. Because the quality of education is much poorer in India, most engineering and medical graduates want to go to western countries to acquire higher education. Nevertheless I do not want to bring this into my discussion about Christianity, because bringing in these points expands the scope of the topic greatly. But if you ignore this, you are living in self-denial, and the underlying problem is somewhere else).
6. No one considers Goa to be a “Christian” state. Once again it’s only ignorant, half-knowledge people who do that. If you were to talk precisely, there is no Christian-country in this world!
Yes there are Islamic republics, Hindu kingdoms and Communist republics but there is no “Christian nation” by definition in this world. Because Christianity cannot be enforced upon anyone. Christianity is a matter of conscience – it is about Man’s relationship with God. Period. If you find this confusing, you have to open the NT for yourself and read it.
7. You are talking about Spain as if it is a “Christian” state and as if you “knew all about it”. As recently as 30 to 40 years ago, “Christians” were persecuted in Spain.
If you don’t believe any encyclopedias and you care for the truth just a tad bit, I recommend that you get a visa to Spain, buy yourself a ticket and go and speak to the people there. I know what I’m talking about because I know someone very well whose father suffered under tyranny of the Spanish government in the 1960s.
8. Coming back to the point, it is not possible for a person to be Christian and continue in life as a Christian without a personal encounter with the Living Lord Jesus Christ.
9. If you are so concerned about the truth and have a real desire to know the truth, you could start doing the following three things:
1. Read first and understand your own books. Ask fundamental questions about life, look for the answers in your own books and write them down.
2. Then read the Holy Bible, ask the same questions and write down the answers found in the Bible for those questions and compare.
3. Ask for yourself, if you want to know the IDENTITY of the TRUE GOD. If you DO want to know it, then just say a simple prayer: “GOD, IF YOU ARE TRUE AND REAL PLEASE REVEAL YOURSELF TO ME THAT I MAY KNOW YOU AND WORSHIP YOU.” God if He is real, He WILL speak to you.
10. So, in summary do not waste your time mixing up politics, misconstrued history and partial knowledge of things and reality and arrive at baseless conclusions.
After all, you never know when you may die, you could be just at the wrong place at the wrong time and that might be the end of it all, without even having the opportunity to really consider reality. Our life is so limited. I could have been in that crowd in Dilsukhnagar when the bombs went; equally you could have been.
You and I will die, we do not know when, but God is there and He was being discussed and talked about by your great grand parents and He will be discussed by your great grand children but you and I won’t be here for more than another 60 years ( I do not know how old you are, and the life expectancy in AP is not that high, anyway)!
You know, Christ said the following words:
“If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” [rf. HB]
Ajay,
” You are equating western countries’ political power with Christianity”
Christianity is western theocracy and you must know this much before setting out to educate others. There is no original spiritual content in Christianity since its inception – it was always about power and dogma. Whatever little spiritual content it shows off is plagiarised from the then-existent traditions which were subsequently wiped out by the Church. To attempt to hairsplit between power and religion in a theocracy is not an argument you can sell me. Same with Islam – it is a theocracy by its very nature and definition.
Your excuse that Goa is “not a christian state” is irrelevant because Goa is today part of a secular republic and not a Portugese theocratic state. The question is how its christian population came into existence – through inquisition.
Hindu society was never a theocracy for the simple reason that its religious institutions and state institutions were always separate. Hindu statecraft does not base itself on any religion, hence no mass murder was organized by Hindus as an imperial agenda like Europe and Islam did. And that the west continue to do today by exporting the attack all over Asia. Christianity never existed independent of state – it always thrived by the state power only. It cannot survive without state power because it has no profound spiritual content or knowledge that can impress the followers of lofty oriental knowledge systems – hence it was sought to be imposed as part of colonial inquisition. Even the west has thrown it away for the most part and is trying to export it to Asia only as a part of its imperial agenda and there is no other existence of Christianity as a philosophical or spiritual or knowledge system. None.
How much ever you try to beat round this, truth is not going to change. Don’t waste time impressing me with theories that are long debunked and stale, try opening your eyes to truth.
skandaveera,
You are trying to drag this on and on and nobody’s trying to impress anybody here.
What you call “spirituality” in Hinduism is not spirituality at all. It’s “soulish”. Period.
Because men who are separated from the Living God are not spiritually alive in God’s eyes instead they are spiritually dead. So all of man’s efforts from that point on to reach God are attempts in the realm of the soul and the flesh. Period.
How can India be a republic? How could India become a republic? Without the Constitution that gave citizenship and equal rights to all “Indians”, India could not become a republic. And that very constitution and the parliamentary system is based on British parliament and to a good extent on the “Common Law”. So, Goa is part of the Republic of India an India which by definition became a republic because it adopted a constitution and that too based on a western constitution and government model. Even the armed forces are based on the western model.
{Let me make it clear to you that I did not want to debate West vs. India, that’s not my point at all. I’m Indian in the modern sense defined by the Constitution of India and I’m content in my Indianness and have nothing to envy of the west (though I feel ashamed of many things that go in India). I intended my discussion to be purely based on the Holy Bible and the Gospel of Jesus of Nazareth compared to other beliefs. But since you are always ranting on about “West this, west that”, I just wanted to put the record straight}
You are forcing me dig up all the history of India to show what Hinduism is about. In fact there is no such religion per se in India because even the name “Hinduism” is given by western scholars.
I wouldn’t call that Hinduism, it’s just a form of syncretism, of the worship of idols, (of whatever scares the people or whatever is widespread: worship of snakes, because they are deadly and poisonous and not easily tamed, worship of monkey, because the monkey is everywhere, worship of lion and elephant and again for similar reasons, then worship of fellow humans because they are wealthier or more attractive for whatever qualities they might have that are envied by others), and add some kind of philosophy thought out by some sage living somewhere within the geographical bounds of India, of ideas that attempt to answer fundamental questions thinking men ask like: “Who am I?” “Where do I come from?” etc. All this hodge podge mixed in together with some stories told by some old man in the past and that is being called “Hinduism”: to handle all this with some name when you discuss such matters. So the name itself is a matter of convenience.
The gods that are popular today weren’t popular 500 years ago, and those that were popular back then weren’t popular or non existent if you went back another 500 years.
Now you are drumming “India”, I’ll show immense respect to you if you did not waste time here and went and embraced every Indian irrespective of who he or she is. If you are so Indian, then you should take in every Indian into your home, and especially the poor and the outcasts and make a difference in their lives. If the poor develop, then India would truly develop and then you do not have to envy western countries and have a complex about it.
For that matter, there’s not even a country called India named by the Indians. For that matter, who is a Telugu person or who is an “Andhran” or “Andhraite”? You cannot define an identity for any Indian without qualifying that with several other attributes.
At the end of the day the truth of the matter is:
“All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.” [Rf. HB].
Ajay,
You tried to sell me Christianity, and now that you failed, you turn to attack Hinduism. Expected. But since you have already exhibited your illiteracy with concepts like spirituality, one point suffices. India’s pluralism is because of Hinduism and the west’s exclusivism is because of Christianity. So Hindus never need to be taught about equality or tolerance or peace – it is the Christian society that needs to learn these, and some civilization. West did not teach anything worthwhile to India – it plagiarised Indian knowledge, and continues to loot India’s resources to this date. India’s wealth is looted, its knowledge system is destroyed, hundreds of its groups were impoverished with their professions invalidated – this is the contribution of your colonial masters. India was demilitirised by the colonial masters, much contrary to the lies you are propagating – namely giving a military model. India’s downtrodden groups are a contribution of invasions and colonial rule. From being the world’s richest country India was reduced to a third world country by the British-Christian rule.
You are free to dig India’s history, which you anyway did without honesty.
As for Hinduism, it is vast and diverse, and does not depend on either political theory or on any single book or prophet. It is a system that evolves, much alike any universal phenomenon. We do not go against basic tenets of logic or truth. Hence Hinduism does not claim exclusive superiority or try to influence others the way you are trying here.
Here is another evidence of the fulfilment of God’s promise to Abraham: “I WILL BLESS YOU AND YOU WILL BE A BLESSING TO THE NATIONS”. [RFf. HB]:
“BASSI: During his two-day visit to Jaipur, ambassador of Israel, Alon Ushpiz, laid the foundation stone for an Indo-Israel Centre of Excellence (CoE) for pomegranate in Bassi. Earlier in the day, Ushpiz met chief minister Ashok Gehlot and discussed with him ways to enhance cooperation between Israel and Rajasthan, in the fields of agriculture and water.
“In Israel 75% of the water used in agriculture is treated sewage re-cycled. Israel and Rajasthan face similar crisis and I discussed Israeli technology with the CM to counter water shortage. We believe in a holistic water management approach utilizing technology,” said the ambassador.
In agriculture, three Indo-Israel CoEs are at various stages of development in Rajasthan, for transfer and adaptation of Israeli technologies and know-how to farmers in the state. “The idea behind this is to use applied research to solve farmer’s problems, introduce new technology that is cost effective, believe in the uniqueness of a place and design to increase productivity,” said Ushpiz.
“The experiment here is just in the initial stages and would take some time to bear fruit. In Haryana near Karnal, it has been some time and the center has been able to transform farming in the area with the use of protected cultivation technology. Hundreds of farmers have benefited from the Israeli technology,” said Uri Rubinstein counsellor International Cooperation, (Mashav) Science and Technology. “The climate of Rajasthan is very conducive to pomegranate cultivation. Maharashtra was a disaster as the plant needs heat and sun. We will start with a good nursery and provide healthy saplings to the farmers,” said Rubinsten.
In addition to Bassi, a centre dedicated for citrus is in the works in Kota, and in Jaislamer Israeli experts are working together with local counterparts on prototypes of palm trees, with an aim to develop a date growing industry in the state. In addition to these government initiatives, a private sector venture of Israeli olive plantations has started to bear fruit in various sites across the state.
In the next two years 27 to 28 Centres of Excellence have been planned in India. Among them three will be in Rajasthan.” The technologies to be transferred include irrigation, soil solarisation for disease control in plants, poly-house farming, fertilizers’, hybrid plants and seeds. The centres would be for citrus fruits in Kota, pomegranate in Bassi and dry dates in Jaisalmer.
During his visit to Jaipur, Ushpiz also met governor Margaret Alva, minister of agriculture Harji Ram Burdak, and minister of revenue and water resources Hemaram Choudhary. ”
Israel is the size of Guntur, Krishna and West Godavari districts combined together, yet in the same period that India has been independent Israel has become such a technological power that Israel is bringing the benefits of its research to India and other countries, where there’s a gap. This is direct fulfilment of the blessing and promise God made to Abraham, the progenitor of Israel.
Good. So give up Christianity and become a Jew, Mr desperate.
Why did Israel get “independence” after 2000 years of continuous persecution? Is that not the contribution of your wonderful Christianity? Why did India gain independence, from which christian imperialism? Talk of cause, then effect.
I think u are an idiot. Have you heard about guntur incident. where 15000+ people got converted on a single night??? I am from AP and I have travelled from Hyd to vijawada and from guntur to tirupathi everyware you can see a church planted and most of the sc and st have got converted. Sooner you open your eyes the better. Dont blend any one hindutva fanatic with our a peanut size knowledge about reality
Exactly Siddharth,
I have personally seen some of these things myself. But having travelled all over the world, I found these ‘pseudo-Hindu’ zealots simply make a hate issue over trivial things which amazes me. I wonder how long these idiots will keep propagating the myth that ‘Hinduism’ is in danger, when all over the world including USA, UK, Australia etc. more number of temples keep coming up every month.
Why can’t these ‘pseudo-Hindus’ look at facts?
1. Look at the number of temples all over the world in 1900. Then look at the number of temples all over the world in 2010.
2. Look at the number of Hindus all over the world in 1900.
Look at the number of Hindus all over the world in 2010.
(Has it grown or shrunk…?)
To put things in perspective, some populations have actually shrunk. From a 114 thousand in 1941, Parsis have reached about 69 thousand in 1941 (according to an academic paper).
Now this community have really got a reason to be worried about their religion/community. I would have understand if they had made some efforts.
But to say Hinduism is in decline or that Hindus are about to become extinct is a clear and whopping lie, but surprisingly, these zealots are able to find recruits. That shows that in India, led by huge poverty, poor governance and some ‘ideology’ (real or ‘pseudo), youth are going astray.
No wonder even Maoists are finding recruits, so are Islamic groups like SIMI and so also the fake missionaries who trying to dazzle the population with ‘healings.
My point is simple :: Instead of trying to create a fanatical group, my friends like Arisebharat, should work toward building one INDIA FOR ALL INDIANS where every Indian from Kashmir to Kanyakumari and Gujarat to Meghalaya can feel safe, secure and free to preach or practice his/her religion (in a non-violent fashion), where everyone is free to preach or air his/her views and beliefs (non-violently).
We need an India that is strong, well -governed but emphasises freedoms for its citizens and protects its citizens all over the country from mobs of all types – whether these mobs are militant mobs of muslims, or pseudo-hindu mobs or shiv sena or MNS mobs or any other groups like Maoists or ULFA or whatever.
I am sure Arisebharat is well-intentioned and wishes well for India/Bharat. Trying to create a ‘saudi arabian’ version of ‘hindu nationalist India’ is not what is needed in the 21st century where truth, freedom, safety and the need for individual liberty must go hand in hand.
Can you please read and comment on this piece?
http://satyastories.wordpress.com/2009/05/25/the-christian-vote-bank-andhra-elections/
I would like to know what you think…
Satya
absolutely true…
pls educate your people about these dirty missionary activity in andhra.
today christians are 7.8 cr in Indias 122 crore population…
hindus have slumped to 72% from 80% in 10 yrs!!
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ISLAM’S PITILESS BRUTALITY
By S.P. Attri ( USA )
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1. For a Non-Moslem Kafir, it is difficult to visualize the Moslem’s capacity for blind-terror. In Iran, women ( especially if they are single women ) are lashed fifty times, for being present at a family gathering, where men other than their father & brother are present. Their crime ? They are single women. It is forbidden for single women to be present under the same roof with men. Many such women live in constant terror.
Uncounted number of such women of all ages, are the target of a barbaric ordeal in the Islamic societies today, and throughout the history of Islam.
Supreme Leader of the Islamic Revolution, Ayatollah Khomeini, says:
“A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than 7, other sexual act such as forplay, rubbing, kissing and having pleasure is allowed…”
2. The fanatic barbarians of Islam, regard these punishments of women, as honorable, manly, and sacred duty of Moslems.
During the last three decades, Middle East has witnessed an escalating witch-hunt, which has spread terror among writers, novelists, film-directors, artists, & intellectuals, who criticize the use of abuse in Islam. They have been accused of blasphemy & apostasy, and of spreading unbelief. They have been censured, sued for libel, and jail-sentenced routinely. In the Middle-East, Israel remains the “ only oasis of modernity & democracy, “ while Moslem countries remain fortresses of authoritarian regimes.
Sharia is the legal system in Moslem countries, it is the legal code. Under this legal system, women & minorities are deprived of human rights. Women are totally deprived of fulfilling their potential. Moslem pressure is underway, for the introduction of Sharia in both Europe & USA. Fear of application of Sharia in Europe & USA is real. Under Sharia, gays are to be slaughtered, and women are to be considered inferior, and honor-killing of women would proliferate, and polygamy would grow under the codes of Sharia. Human rights, women’s rights, & minorities rights do not exist under Sharia. Sharia brings in slavery.
3. Moslems are in the middle of no-where. They have been hostages of their own belief system. Prof. Hutington talks about “ clash of civilizations. “ But it is the Moslems who began the clash of civilizations, by dividing the world into Moslems & Kafirs ( Non-Moslem Infidels ). Islam compares Kafirs to apes & pigs, and calls for killing of Kafirs. This murder is committed as a command from Allah. This murder is specific to Islam, and satisfies the wild bestial instincts of barbarian Moslems.
Islam is a very dangerous belief system. It preaches the destruction of other belief systems. Moslems do not realize that they are inside their prison of Islam. Many people suggest the reformation of Islam. They argue that criticism of Islam again & again, will force the Moslems to look at their religion. They insist that we need to help the Moslems to get used to criticism of Islam.
Such suggestions are naïve at best. Islam is a political ideology that, applies its ideology by force. In Islam there are no moderates. In Islam, you have to accept all teachings of Islam, otherwise you are not a Moslem. Because of this rigidity, Islam cannot be reformed. Islam is more likely to be crushed, with use of force & force-multipliers of modern societies.
4. Jewish theolgian, Franz Rosenzweig, qualified Islam as a parody of revealed religion. Superficially, Islam mimics Judaism more than Christianity. Moslems pray five times a day, Jews pray three times. Males are circumcised in both Islam & Judaism. A similar dietary codes ( Halal/Kosher ) prevails in both Islam & Judaism. But as opposed to Judaism, Islam never rid itself of the most barbaric practices, of the primitive world, even in the 21st century. The primitive world persist inside Islam, under the Abrahamic veneer.
But Islam does parody Christianity as well. Unlike Judaism, which seeks to separate Israel, from the practices of the surrounding people, Christianity tries to incorporate all of humanity, into the New People Of God ( their God, the Christian God ). Likewise Islam tries to impose its Islamic religion, universally on all people of the world, and accepts no point of departure from this imperialist attitude. Thus both Islam & Christianity carry this baggage, of imposition of their religion, on the entire world.
Thus it is absurd to propose that, Islam parodies only Judaism. Islam is a ludicrous parody of Christianity equally well.
5. Because Islam touts itself as a religion of peace, and because historical record of Islam does not support this claim, a question may logically be asked.
Does Islam promote barbarism or suppresses it ?
To answer this question, even a cursory look at a vast collection of Hadiths ( sayings of Hazrat Mohammad ), would reveal that:
There is explicit support of female genital mutilation, wife-beating, and slaughter of Kafirs inside these Hadiths. Thus such barbaric acts of Islam persist, because of Islam, and not despite Islam.
Surinder Paul Attri
Stupid idot u christians have all ways shown muslims as enemy and entered india as aids virus killing demography
Jesus Christ is the Way the Truth and the Life. God so loved the world that He gave His Only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but shall have eternal life.
Oh yes? People who kept the world in dark and used power to suppress truth and logic for centuries are going to preach about truth and life, to people who taught the world how to seek truth? People who cannot stand to rational thought and use fraud to gain converts are going to preach truth and life?
Wow! A real eye opener.The flame should be lit in every heart to carry the lofty ideas of secularism,peace and ethical religious preaching.